Using Muric Acid to clean your cell!

[Bob]

Howdy All !
well I followed Candymans advice and bought some Muric acid to clean out my cell with
... well I think I may have over done it just a bit...
I flushed the cell with the garden hose and did that a few times ... then syphoned it dry as best I could....
added Stright Muric Acid to over the top cell  by about 1" so all the cells were covered in 100% muric acid... I added just a squirt of water to the stuff so it probly wound up being about a 95% soulution of Muric Acid and water....
I then set my stop watch and checked it every so often.... after 30 minutes I desided I'ed better get that stuff out'a there and syphoned it out and flushed it with water 2 or 3 times
and after the flushing it was very shinnie once again... but prior to the flushing it looked just as it had.... with every other plate looking like it was gold anodized...
so the flushing with the nozzle must have realy knocked the stuff loose...
...infact I would not have left it in so long if it looked like it was cleaning it...but it didn't look any diferent .... well looks are decieveing and after I flushed it out it realy was clean once again..... (so I left the soulution in there for a very long time indeed...perhaps TOO LONG !)
so I syphoned out the garden hose water and put in distilled water fired up the truck and turned it on with my rolaid bittle full of KOH at hand to add what ever it needed to get the amps up to 15 amps once again...  BUT !
..... But I got to the front of the truck and the engine sped up a bit and I think I hurd the breaker trip... and looking at the amp meter that was the case no amps at all....
I thought well ok I guess it needs some KOH and then I hurd a snap and the amp meter swong to the pegged position and set there for a second and the Hydroxy generator sprung to life putting out more Hydroxy gas than Iever saw it put out before and SNAP off went the circuit breaker once again!.....
I put up the KOH and scratched my head... closed the hood and turned off the engine and walked away....  that ain't RIGHT !
it can't possably be pulling over 30 amps on stright water can it ? they are in parallel which usually means it takes much less KOH to operate  but NONE ?
so I figured I must have ate away an insulator or something so I tried a continuity test and its got 27kohms between each of the 2 posts on each cell... their wet I'ed expect some continuity.... but NO direct short....
... I'm thinking that the Muric Acid cleaned the plates better than they ever were before...
and I need to go back to series hookup  in order to control the amp draw !
... if this is truly the case then fooie on conditioning plates by run in time give them a Muric Acid bath and be done with it !
....
ANY COMMENTS PLEASE !
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Bob,
Sounds like what happened to me when I fried my PWM. I had followed someones advise and ran the Smack booster with 1/2 muratic acid and 1/2 distilled water. This only after a few seconds pegged my ameter and fried my pwm. I got nasty brown stuff almost like coffee grounds and took me many rinsings to get that out of the cell. I think I shorted the cell out. It blew my 30amp fuse too. Now this one does perform better than the other smack booster I didn't do that with. Now I just let the cell sit in a solution of 1/2 muratic acid and 1/2 distilled water for 15 minutes and rinse with distilled water and then put into use. I do this to get fingerprints off the plates and any other residue from drilling and such. This seams safe and does help condition the plates.
for what it is worth,
Tink

[Bob]

Yah Tink...Sorry about that I think it was me that advised ya on how to use the PWM at the time
although I had no idea the amprage would be THAT HIGH !!!!...OOOPS !
thanks for your info... I am fairly certain just re wireing my cell back to A Series connection will make it useable again....
  I had NO IDEA the cells were that dirty ! ...no wonder the production was low !
HAHAHAHA
live and learn I guess !

Bob........

[Bob]

As I suspected !
I re wired the cell back to Series configuration... fired it up and it was drawing about 5 amps is all
in that config... so I added KOH to the distilled water till I got to about 14.75 amps and left it at that sense the unit was still quite cold....
before I started adding the KOH it was clear water all the way to the bottom, no color at all in it.
as I was adding the KOH I noticed the water change to a coffee brown and some goo starting to form
I hope this is not a pre cursor of what I just went through ! ... if so I will chuck the KOH and go with Lemonaid from now on ...at least it stayed clear...with no goo and only a slight tint of yellow...
...
perhaps the KOH is reacting with the reminants of the Muric Acid I dunno because you can never flush out All the traces of an acid.... it gets into the pours of the meterial... part of the reason I was reluctant to use Muric Acid in the first place... but it showed me that My plates were very dirty from day 1 even with the wire wheeling I gave them all.
so I am convinced that the Muric Acid helped a great deal...
...
the output looks fairly good for only 15 amps.... probly about 3/4 to 1LPM for all 3 cells in series
that will improve probly at least Double maybe tripple when it warms up and draws 30 amps.( at least I hope it will ! <GRIN>)
....
Just thought I'ed let ya know.
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Bob,
Run your cell for a while heat it up good, then dump the electrolyte and start again it should clear up and be almost clear. Mine usually stays a light amber color but no goo. Put your used electrolyte in the freezer and see if it will freeze.  could be a break through if it don't freeze 

[randy]

OK OK OK where the heck do I get muric acid, sounds easier and quicker then tearing down my cells, the lemon koolaid worked flawlessly until I added the denatured alcohol. strange I don't see any goo in the thing fluid still looks pretty green, smells good too, getting thirsty, heading for the fridge.

[Bob]

Randy :
  I picked mine up at Lowes Hardware...Highest place in town for most stuff, but they were close by!
heheheheh and I'm lazy !
 I got a box containing 2 gal jugs for $8.98 or there abouts !
...
I ran to town expecting to see the amp draw shoot up when I opened the hood in Redding... the amp guage still was reading 15 amps !!!!!! so I came home and then opened the hood... it read 16 amps....
eather its down right cold out there, or something else has happened ...
anyway I guess I'll go check and see if It made any GOO....
i forgot to check that ...
back in a sec....
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Randy,
Muratic Acid (bob can't spell) is used for cleaning bricks, block, concrete and pools. Try a pool or plumbing supply store. Be careful even the fumes will make steel rust. If you use it full strength when you are finished just funnel it back into the jug. It won't hurt stainless or plastic (I think that's why they put it in a plastic jug)  Oh and one more thing DO NOT mix it with KOH make sure you rinse your cell good.

[Bob]

HAHAHA Your Right Candyman ! I KANT SPEEL WORTH SHIP !
but thats ok cuz I don't care...as long as I'm understood  I could care less how yaz spelz it!
hehehehehe ( my rebelious youth showing still!)
...
any hoo I just checked the Hydroxy generator in the truck  its pulling exactly 20 amps
not 16 one mark means 5 amps ...ooops !  any from 14 cold to 20 hot isn't that far off is it Randy ?
...
the electrolite looked good... no goo at all and Pee yellow in color... couldn't see the top cell cuz of all the bubbles and thats a good sign.... so it looks to be produceing fairly well even if its only got 20 amps going to it !
... I might try a 1/4teaspoon more of KOH just to get the extra 5 amps but I have a feeling if I do it will draw too much when its actually warm outside ! HAHAHHA!
...
..
Randy I've seen that Muriciatciac Acid stuff even in grocery stores for spa's and pools, looks like a jug of lemonaid but has skulls and cross bones on it fer some reason ! <GRIN>
...I syphoned it out on the ground.... Yes I know, not a good idea, but I have no other place to put it.... it started bubbleing and desolveing the PINE NEEDLES !!!! its mean stuff, I didn't get any on me and don't plan to eather !
...
so all in all I'ed say it is a success it cleaned up the cell in no-time and it seams to be running clean now...but time will tell !
...
Thanks Candyman for that helpfull bit of info... you have no idea how much work you saved me !
all 3 of those Randy cells were going to have to come appart and be cleaned on the wire wheel
and then re installed in the container... a good 4 days stright work !
... thank you very much !
....
Bob........




 

[randy]

for each 3 cells I have I get 2+ LPM at 21-22 amps, that's with only one insulator in each position, I remember trying 2 insulators back when I had the shorting problem using baking soda and sodium hydroxide, it didn't help, so I went back to the cloooose spacing of one insulator, the k-aid and distilled hasn't had any problems, the test cell I was running with the KOH frosted up and dropped in output I ran it in k-aid and distilled in a coffee cup for a while and reversed polarity and ran a while again, cleaned the frosting right up, still gonna look into that muratic acid though, it might well work as an electrolyte, who knows, anything that keeps em clean is a winner in my book, by the way Bob, since ya already have some of the stuff try freezing some will ya.
Randy

[Bob]

Ummm DUH never thought of that Randy OK will do I got a small plastic bottle I'll fill and throw into the freezer... REMIND me to check it tomarrow ! HAHAHHAHAHA
....
Bob.......

[Tink]

Randy,
First, my 1 and 1/4 tespoon soultion of KOH and distilled water did freeze quite hard at 5 degrees overnite in the freezer. It even got ice on the plates in my truck at 19 degrees the other nite.
Second, when I ran 1/2 muratic acid and 1/2 distilled water in my cell it shorted out my cell and fried a 30 amp fuse and blew my PWM. That was without any KOH in the solution. And took me many rinsings and cleanings to get rid of the coffee ground type stuff it left on the cell and wound up at the bottom of the container. But that cell actually produces more gas now than the other one I didn't do that with.
For what it's worth,
Tink

[candyman55]

Randy,

 I don't think that it would be a good idea to use as electrolyte. It's much more corrosive than KOH. And I doubt that it will freeze. I know that if you mix enough KOH with water it won't freeze. I am just not sure what the least amount you can use and not freeze is.

[randy]

from the different things I've tried I'm thinking that distilled white vinegar and k-aid mix may be the solution, I'll mix different ratio's of vinegar and water in cups and see where it doesn't freeze, then I'll have to run that mixture in a test cell and find out if it kills the antifreeze properties with use, we'll see
Randy

[Bob]

I know we used desolved rock salt to put in large tractor tires At Vista tractor and equipment
when I worked there many years ago... they did that so the tires wouldn't freeze... a smart move on a big tractor left out in the weather over there !
...but we can't use salt or any of its forms because of the GOO problem
I have some Muratic Acid in the freezer right now , just to see if it freezes.... been in there a good 6 hrs now.... letme check it...Nope it is NOT frozen yet...still very much liquid!
not even the slightest crystals forming.... looks very good against freezeing !...
.... but I don't think I want to split that stuff appart it could be worse than "FALL-OUT"
HAHAHAHAHHAHA
....
just get a Bottle of Bacardi 151 and pour about 1/2 of it in there !  that should do it !
HAHAHAHHAHA
....but then again...if I had a bottle of Bacardi 151 I would NOT waste it on anti-freezing a cell ! ....<GRIN>
...
hehehe
Bob......

Personally I'm thinking the blue windshield washer antifreeze/bug cleaner in the cell might work ...
I think anything we use, we will in advertantly destroy its antifreeze properties just by running the cell....the heat should evaporite the alchol in it and render it useless
...
so wrap the cell in a heating pad and plug it in at night !
hehehehe
...
park the car in a heated garadge ?
( wish I had one!)
...
pull the car real close up to the side of the house where the dryier vent is and run the dryer all night !
... only cost ya an extra $250 a month fer a warm car !
HAHAHAHA
...
Bob......

[candyman55]

I have still been experimenting with the muratic acid, it seems that the acid does affect nylon screws and washers. It doesn't seem to be much of a problem if the cells are left in the acid for 15 minutes or less but after 30 to 45 minutes the nylon starts to soften somewhat. After about an hour you can pull a layer of the nylon off and the screw heads start to get smaller. And on threaded rod the threads will start to disapear.

I haven't tried th diluted version only 100%. Aside from that it is the best stainless cleaner that I have found.

[Bob]

Ahhh thanks for the Time Warning Candyman!
I havn't noticed any Ill effects from the cleaning except the cells working better than they ever have
before ! HAHAHAHAH
Its obvious to me that the cells were very dirty from the start even at the first testing
....
Actually I recomend everyone clean their cells up this way it realy works GOOD ! just don't put it in and leave it over night or you may not have anything in the container the next morning !
HAHAHA
Bob.......

[Cowboy]

None of y'all can spell!!  It's Muriatic Acid, a.k.a. Hydrochloric Acid.  Bob, the chloric part of that acid could be what caused the goo.  A few flushes with KOH should suck it all out of the metal though.  It's available at farm and ranch supply stores.  Might be able to get it through Lowe's, but I'm not sure about it.  Plumbing stores may also carry it.

Bob,  nice site, digging the lay out.

[Bob]

HAHAHA well so far I 've spelt it Muriac, Muratic, and a host of other fowl names!
yah its hydrochloric ACID... I think... and its MEAN stuff !
...
yah its possable that there was traces left over I suppose but I flushed it about 4 times with the garden hose nozzle and drained it each time.
...
I'll do the M.Acid cleaning again in the next day or so if it don't rain... and then flush the system realy realy good... then add Koolaid ...
so far I am not real happy with the KOH turning Coffee brown... I am certain that is what is coating the plates !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

I got some muriatic acid today. I'm going to clean my 25 plate cell up(it grew from 19 plates)and I'll see what it does to neoprene and HDPE.

[Bob]

Cool, just go a little at a time... don't start off with 30 minutes like I did !!!!!!!
I used 100% for 15 min and checked and could see no change... so I left it in for another 15 min....
still no change... I could see the tiny bubbles forming but the plates were still discolored...
being chicken I then emptied the cell and flushed it out with high water pressure and Everything
and I do mean everything in that cell was sparkeling clean... it took the high pressure water to get it off I guess....
so...
go 100% for 10 minutes and flush it out good and then take a good look see , if it still Looks dirty do it again !.... thats a safer route than what I did !
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

Well I cleaned my 25 plates with muriatic acid today. That stuff is nasty stuff. It smoked and bubbled but it does a job on ss plates. After 15min they were spotless. Thanks for the info.

[charley]

Just a thought here,  but I looked up etching stainless steel and found out they use muriatic acid to etch it with.  You don't suppose that the reason these cells are working so much better after taking a bath in it is because not only have they been cleaned, they've been etched creating more surface area.

Charley

[geezer]

Something to think about! I dont think sanding or etching makes more area it makes more flux lines. many years ago we were taught that a decrease in radius made a increase in emf.have you ever noticed how a magnet gathered more at the edges? I think we all have seen the edges of plates bubble more than the middle of some cells .

[Bob]

Its Possible Charley, the additional area is so minute as to be discounted... one finger print would make that much of a difference.... I think its mainly that their CLEAN for the first time ! HAHAHAHAHHA lets face it I don't ware sergical gloves and a face mask when I make the cells infact if they get wiped off with an oily rag thats good enough ! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

....
Geezer: What you on about ?  decreasing the radius increases the EMF ? how are you going to decrease the radius of the Magnetic flux lines in stainless steel which is supposed to be invisible to the magnetic fields ?
 ...
You lost me bub ! <GRIN>
...

...Bob........

[charley]

You're probably right Bob, it isn't going to do that much.

Geezer,  I'm using really small stainless screen in my generators (40X200 mesh which is 8000 wires per square inch).  I thought that would be better than a stainless plate.  If my figures are right I have about 2.25 times the surface area as plate.  Would the small wires help what you're talking about also? 

by the way I cleaned out the generator I've been using in my Toyota for a couple three months and couldn't believe the nasty crap that came out of it.  It was black and had a bunch of sediment in the bottom and I mean a bunch.  I don't think it could be leaching out of the stainless.  I was using koh and am thinking it must be coming from it.  I just changed to koolaide and rubbing alcohol with distilled water.  We'll see how that works.

Charley

[Bob]

My same conclusion Charley ! I think the KOH is getting to some of us ...over time
...its probly the higher heat cells that cook the KOH...but thats only a guess !
... I think you'll find the Koolaid stays much cleaner... I sure have !
...
Bob........

[geezer]

Bob...I am sorry should have not been in a hurry and been plainer. but when you decrease the radius of a current carrering conductor no matter what material there is a corosponding increase in emf. Smack wants you to coarse sand and then punch plates this only makes lots of ridges or radius to encrease flux lines. this is why they wrap and try seal edges of plate gens. the radi of the edge makes such a stronger emf than the center it creates stray current.....so k

[Bob]

Ahh ok....
so if I wanted to make a Killer Antenna that has allot of EMF I would use a bunch of edges not round tubeing... like square tubeing  or channel stuck togather back to back.
this would increase its tennancy to radiate ...
but then getting a perfect match on such an antenna mught be dificult with all the spurious emitions !  <grin>
...
interesting !
I never knew that about a conductor before ...thank you...increaseing the radious increases the EMF.... Hummmmm
...
thank ya !
Bob..............

[geezer]

No Bob.....its -decrease- the radius increase the emf... unles you ment increase the number of radius or ridges...

[Bob]

Humm...so like the smaller the better then ?
maybe thats why I like wire antenna's so much they just work so good !
...
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

I can tell you one thing not to do when using muriatic acid on you cells. Don't leave the plastic(nylon) fittings on it thinking it won't hurt for 10min. Melted all of them. When I started flushing it out I couldn't figure out why water wasn't flowing through the cell.

[Bob]

it ate up the nilon fittings ??
ACK !
...
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

Its a cheap enough fix. It didn't bother my pvc housing either.

[candyman55]

Yep, reply #15 it ate some of my screws also. 

[randy]

tested it on my insulators, ate em, glad I didn't dump it in my cell.

[Bob]

Ack ! RANDY !  that means my cells are toasted !... no wonder the output is low again!
...
I just can't win !
....
Bob......

[Tink]

Guys,
I have cleaned my smack boosters a few times with Muratic acid and each time they work much better. I soak them in 1/2 muratic acid to 1/2 distilled water for 10 minutes and it cleans them up. I don't take them apart to get the nylon screw rods out or anthing like that. After I soak them I rinse them with distilled water all the time being careful not to touch them with my bare hands. This last time I did this treatment a few days ago is when my cell's efficency droped  and I could only get 5 amps out of it even after I dumped over 5 tespoons of KOH in it. I normally can get 25amps with only 1 and 1/2 tespoons of KOH. What I did wrong I think was I was dumping KOH in while the cell was hot (110 degrees). I could hear it sizzle as it hit the water. I didn't mention this in my previous post. After that is when my production went down and I started getting the brown stuff. I believe if you cut the muratic acid with distilled water by 1/2 it is much safer and does a better job of cleaning. O, I don't know if it is relavent but this last time I was using denatured alcohol by 20% with the HOK and distilled water. Come to thin of it it may have the alcohol that made it sizzle. I also noticed the bottom of my PVY SCH 40 container worped up about a 1/4 inch from the bottom. We live and learn.

Moral of the story is: Don't use muratic acid full strength! And don't dump it in while the cell is even warm (maby only when you have alochol in there, I really don't know).

Tink

[Bob]

Tink:
 it sounds like your having the exact same LPM drop off that I have been having !
it works fine for a few days and then slowly drops off to a very dismal output.
I am almost positive its the KOH doing that because it gets too hot...cooks the KOH and then the KOH coats the cell lowering production...
Cleaning with Muratic Acid cleaned Mine up nicely too...but like a dummie I put KOH back in it ! ....
now I have to clean it again and THIS TIME I will not use KOH any more, just Koolaid!
...
Bob...

[Tink]

Bob,
I really think mine was due to me putting in the KOH while the cell was over 100 degrees or so. Before I don't remember hearing it sizzle. But I think I had only added it when it was cold. Then again it may have had to do with the alcohol in there too. Lately since the colder weather my cell hasn't gone over 165 degrees. And that at 25amps and running for 3 hours. How did your relocating of the HHO input go?
Tink

[Bob]

I havn't had time to get to it yet... ( besides I forgot that I was gunn'a do dat !)
....stood by the truck yesterday trying to deside what it was I was going to do too...
dang man must be getting old ! HAHHAHAHA
Oh well there's alwayse tomarrow !
....
I ran the truck down to Shingletown store today and when I got back ( about a 25mile round trip) the Hydroxy gen was still at 16 amps... so it raised only 1 amp !  and I discovered I forgot to tighten the cap on the cell so the trip was just spitting the hydroxy gas out  the entire trip !....
....
but I at least got the manifold made for the little briggs & Stratton engine...
...
other than that I havn't done all that good today !
must be running on a sleep depisit again HAHAHAHAH
...Kind'a Rummy if ya know what I mean....
I'll see if I can remember to relocate that Hose monyanna !hehehehe
...
...as far as the KOH goes it turns dark brown in one trip to the ranch and back for me
...And when its like that it coats the plates and the LPM starts dropping off sharply
....so I'm done with KOH with the Randy Cells anyway ! its Koolaid er nuttin


Bob.......

[Tink]

Bob,
I gotta ask. Are you using the bolt that comes with the blow off cap? Is it stainless?
I just got one of those for my bubbler at Home Depot and won't have to change it out. But if I put one on the smack booster I thought I may have to change it for SS. Your thoughts? By the way I often find myself in a 'daze of amazement' too.
Tink

[Bob]

Um well No I haven't (em ducks to avoid Randys Punch!) no I've been going to sense day one but still haven't... the bolt does Rust and probably adds Shit to the electrolyte and that electrolyte will magnify anything in it,  so its best to change the bolt for stainless steel as Randy has been telling me to do for months now !
so I suggest you do it first off Tink to avoid contaminating your Electrolyte. it will help in
making less goo !... the wing nut you can use sense its on the outside...
but the bolt head needs to be coated if nothing else.... !
( fiberglass that puppy in and seal it off ! ) HAHAHHA
...cover it with RTV silicone  maybe ?
J.B.WELD it ! smother it in J.B.Weld !.... ( at the price of J.B.Weld you can buy 6 SS replacement bolts ! HAHAHAHAHAHA)
...would you believe I had to pay $7.99 for a tube of RTV Silicone the high heat type (RED).... it used to be $5.99 and that was High ! geeeeez !
.....
...
..
And Tink... wire a safty wire onto that pop off cap or tie a cord to it so you don't loose it when it does pop off !
...
( I just wrap a hunk of bailing wire around the wing nut  myself!)
...
Bob........

[Tink]

OK got the message. I pulled my plugs today and they were all white as a goast after running all week on HHO and no MPG gain. I put new ones in and will run a tank w/o the HHO to see what color they are.
Did you put the Matt Valve near where you plan to relocate the HHO input? I saw your PIC of the Matt Valve in the other topic.
Tink

[Bob]

YES... and your probly thinking what I'm thinking...with the bypass valve in there whats the point ...hehehehe but I'll put it as close to the Air flow sensor inlet as I can...
maybe even stick the hose in side the opening so its as close to the sensor as possable so it can sense the volume better....dunno...havn't done that yet!

...
White plugs arn't very good but in these cars now days its very common to find white plugs
its not a 2 stroke bike and it doesn't need to be brown.... just as long as you can disipate the heat made in the cylinders,  you should be ok...

I'm sure you pulled the plugs before , what did they look like before the hydroxy gas ?
...
Bob.......