THE BIG CELL

[ROADKING]

I am in the process of building two new cells, the one that I have almost completed is a LARGE DRY CELL.  It is made with 316ss,18 gauge,101 plates measuring 8"x8" with a space of 1/16" between plates.  It has a 1" gasket between the plates.  It is wired with a positive on one end and a negative on the other, the rest being neutrals.  So how many amps would this cell take,(which I think will be mega amps) and what should be the production rate.  I am going to start the cell at 50 amps.  I am connecting it to an inverter and then to a bridge rectifier.  I have already completed conditioning the pates and I am now at the point of reconstructing it with the gaskets and seals.

[Bob]

Road King:
 with what you discribed I think you will have a bunch of truble getting any output at all out of the thing.... the reason is the distance between the driven plates about all te distance you can get and still get good production for neutral plates is only about 3" to 4" max.  any greater distance between the end plates(driven plates) will reduce your output a huge amount !
... I will guess that the plates are close to 1/16" thick and sense you have 1/16" gaskets thats 1/8"
per plate and gasket... mutiply that by 101 and the length is ....101/8 /8=12.825"
so your BIG cell will be around 12-3/4" long between the driven plates, too long for any practical driveing of neutral plates... although I believe that is what Bob Boyce actually did... but he had to use a maximum concentration in the electrolyte in order to do that.
which means a PWM that can handle the high amperage...
Now, on the other hand you could place a driven plate every 3"  making the driven plates number 5 in the cell and the rest neutral, beginning with a positive driven plate on both ends and driveing towards a negitive plate with a positive plate in the middle so you'ed have 3 positive plates and 2 negitive driven plates, which should work very well for you
....
8x8=64" each plate one side all the neutral plates will be calculated as only one side because that is how a neutral plate works 1/2 of its thickness is pos the other negitive.
so if you hook it up the way I am sujesting you'll have 50 negitive sides to the plates and 2 plates with 2 sides both being negitive, so that makes 52 negitive sides of 8x8 that will be produceing gas.
64x52= 3328 square inches ( notice I am useing Mantas calculateing method)
now with 3328 sqr inches. if you fed it ONLY 0.01 amp per square inch  that makes
0.01x3328=33.28 amps total... we already know that that will result in an extreamily low production output, so what happens if we give it .03 amps per square inch .
0.03x3328=94.84amps
....
 However... that is only 300th of an amp per square inch.... thats not very much at all
the Randy cell according to my calculations used a diferent method of calculation  to come upwith the amps per square inch figure which would not be valid in this case so we need to calculate the randy cell useing the same method... 2"SS washer with 1/2" center hole
3.14159x2"=6,283sqr inches.  .5x3.14159=1570 ( airea of the hole in the middle)
6.284-1.570=4.714Square inches on 1 side per washer
out of the 11 washers 5 are negitive and are surrounded on each side by pos plates so we need both sides of the 5 washers to get the area. or 4.714x5x2=47.14 square inches (using Mantas method)...
that 47.14 sqrin. produces 2LPM at 20amps
so 20amps /47.14=0.42426 amps per square inch in the "Randy cell"
so the output is 2LPM /47.14=0.042426 LPM per sqr inch...
so now we can use those figures on your cell dimentions to see what it COULD produce if you used the proper amperage...
3328 sqr inches times 0.042426= 141.193 LPM
at 3328x0.42426 =1411.93 amps...
Ok.... obviously thats not going to happen  halving that is still 700amps and gives 0.21213
and halves the output as well to 70.59LPM
still way too high but if we chop it by 4 times (devide by 4) we get
175 amps
17.64 LPM
and only 0.05303 amps per square inch....
which means... its amps per square inch is so low at 175 amps... I have no idea what it will put out!  its too low to be anywhere near the Randy cell output per square inch...
so its realy hard to say just what it would put out....
even at 200amps...

however the 700amps at 70.5LPM is probly a reasonable asumption.
......
I actially hope someone finds fault in my calculations because thats realy abisimal output
....hehehehehe

Bob......

[Bob]

humm after looking at that for a bit I realised that the Randy cell APSI is only a tad higher than that of the .03 at 99amps... so my calculations of over 1000 amps has to be bogus!<GRIN>
even if it gives over 70LPM!
if we take the sqr inch of the randy cell that gives 2LPM at .04APSI then we should be safe to asume that 3328/47.14= 70.598 (remember thats 2 LPM for each time it goes into it)so 70.59x2= 141.91LPM at or near 200amps   if you can get theamps per sqr inch that high
 that seams unusually high  remember the old 10:1 addage...  amps per LPM?  that doesn't follow suit at all the output is too high for that... at 200 amps  you should get 20LPM
not over 100 or even 70.......
so its safe to say if you put in 200 amps the most you could get is 20LPM output
100amps  10LPM.... however the calculations are not playing fair so I simply dunno !HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAH
.... hopefully someone will strighten out my mess !
...
Bob....

[ROADKING]

Well I think I have almost completed conditioning my plates.  I conditioned my pates with just the spacers in them so they would clean easier, so the sludge or coffee grounds would come out of them.  One thing to consider which wont change a lot is that I now have a one inch gasket to go in the cell between each plate, which will now equal 79 inches per plate.  I am now going to wire it (Bob) as you suggested in the earlier post and at that time we will see what it does.  I have talked to a person in Calif. who is working with Boyce and he tell me if I use his pwm it will produce up to 3 times as much hydro, and then if I were to add a toroidal coil, that at that time i will produce 5 times over that, and that there will be less than 1 amp at the pwm. This will be with an inverter of 1200 watts continuous use, a toroidal coil, a bridge rectifier, and a pwm.  Thanks for all the input.

[Bob]

Oh yah !!!! i forgot the gasket area ! bummer deal dude ! HAHAHHAHA
oh well, as you can see the figures didn't come out very well at all but if you can get a 10 amp to 1LPM ratio out of the cell you will be dong fantastic the more common attempt yields 10amps to .75LPM
still at 101 plates you should have a very good chance of produceing more than enough for a v8 engine and if your very lucky perhaps even enough to go 100% hydroxy !
...
although I don't hold much stock in the torodial concept it does make sense that a strong magnetic field on the vapor cloud would brake it down even more...which is a good thing.
to me its kind'a like putting a magnet on your gas line and clameing 25% better gasmilage !
<GRIN> for one its going to take one heck of a strong magnet to do ANYTHING to the gas going through the line and the ones that they sell ya are not that strong ,heheheheh
I feel at his stage of the game you'ed be better off putting the amperage that would be going into the Troidial coil, into your Hydroxy cell instead.
... don't get me wrong here , There is a place for strong magnetic fields in Hydroxy generation... and I believe that you could dispense entirely with the plates and go with electromagnets instead... if you made them strong enough... because it is the magnetic fields on the plates that do the work in the first place so if you could duplicate that
you'ed have it.... but that is the entire point of the plates, its much easier to do it with plates than one big magnetic field.
so personally I won't bother making a toridial coil unless someone realy proves to me that it makes a big diference, Stan Mayer and Bob Boyce both say the coils are needed that they help production... but as I said takeing that much amperage away from the plates has the reverse effect as well when you could put that much more into the plates...
and those coils take a bunch of amps, are hard to make, and are very expensive parts to get IF you can find them !
the best adaption I've seen yet was on the Joe cell where his high quality stainless steel container was wrapped in heavy wire as a magnetic coil... the idea was briliant, as most Aussie inventions are <GRIN> but his followers dispenced with the coil of wire thinking that it served no real concrete purpose. (to his shrigrin I am sure!<GRIN>)
...on something as Different as Bob Boyces's 101plate cell its probably best to duplicate his work as much as you can... even his PWM because he painstakingly made that thing for resonant effects. he got over 47LPM if I remember right, but was very quiet on how many amps it took to do that....maybe I just didn't see that part... but at 470 amps or 500amps
its not unreasonable at all to achieve that much LPM....
that kind of amperage is religated to the test bench in most cases however, getting that much out of altenators is a tough task !
...
My 2 coppers!
...
Bob......

[ROADKING]

Bob,
On the toroidal coil,  I have spoke to some people about this, and the way we see it is that this coil is more less a step up transformer,  It consist of 3 primary phases,(all switching at different intervals and all set at different frequencies) and 1 secondary, which this is where it appears to me that it is producing the 3 different frequencies along with voltage spikes.  Boyce claims to be operating this cell  at 200 volts at 60 amps with the volts starting at 150 ac volts from the inverter, and producing 45 or more litres.  So I don't know but this is what I will be working toward, and I will try to keep you posted on how I progress.

[Manta]

Roadking,

re,...I have talked to a person in Calif. who is working with Boyce and he tell me if I use his pwm it will produce up to 3 times as much hydro, and then if I were to add a toroidal coil, that at that time i will produce 5 times over that, and that there will be less than 1 amp at the pwm. This will be with an inverter of 1200 watts continuous use, a toroidal coil, a bridge rectifier, and a pwm....

Maybe you could put up a couple of diagrams to help explain just how this idea works.  I would be careful.
I suspect the there is a thin coating of snake oil involved somewhere.
All this talk of changing frequencies etc needs a bit more light shedding on it.

Manta

[Manta]

Roadking,
additional.

Re ....I am going to start the cell at 50 amps.  I am connecting it to an inverter and then to a bridge rectifier....

As the word 'inverter' tends to mean something different in the UK to what it means in the USA,  could you describe to me what you mean by it.  Over here it means a device that converts DC from,  say,  a battery,  to AC for normal AC lighting etc.

Not trying to be picky,  just wanting to make sure that I am reading you correctly.

Manta

[ROADKING]

Manta, the inverter will be going from 12 volt dc to the inverter to 120 ac volt and then to the bridge rectifier to 120 dc AS far as snake oil I think there is a lot of that just for that almighty dollar if you know what I mean.LOL

[Manta]

Roadking,

Thanks for that,  it's what I thought you meant. Mind you don't fry yourself with that 120 volt DC.  Unlike AC it doesn't let go between each cycle.
Manta

[Manta]

Roadking,

Is this the system you are going to run at 50 Amp ?  If so, that will give you 120 * 50 =6000 Watt.  can your inverter handle that ?

Manta

[ROADKING]

I am suppose to be able to acquire this with a 1200 watt inverter.  Then the coil and pwm will cause something like 10 times spike current equaling 11kws if I remember all the numbers correctly.  You can see the schematic under the Bob Boyce 101 plate cell.

[hg2]

  Roadking Bob Boyce later found that 81 plates were more efficient than 101.I'll look up where I read that and post it when I find it.

  It will require a toroidal coil along with chokes to achieve the same results Bob Boyce had.Toroidal coils aren't cheap,I don't know how much research you've done on them,but winding one takes high skill and precision windings to build.It will take a 6.5 iron powder core coil to achieve what Bob Boyce accomplished using them.This technology will require strong electronics knowledge to build.

  But if you got the wallet and the knowledge I say go for it.

[ROADKING]

The powder iron core runs about $50.00. I found the wire to wind it with the Teflon silver plated solid copper core at about .21 per foot,  however I am awaiting for one to be built and it was priced to me at $380.  You are correct in the time and precision it takes to build.  Far as the money you tell me where do you quit, for I have already spent a lot of money trying to make this work,lol.  NOW IF IT WORKS IT WILL BE WORTH IT I think.  Bob Boyce also states to double this production of the 101 plate cell (6x6 plates) to build it with 6x9 plates,  So we are going to build this on as soon as I receive the electrical components.  I have told my friend that if this does not work I will be ready to quit, he say no we are not going to quit, lol,  But I will know I would guess by Spring maybe.

[Bob]

Bob,
On the toroidal coil,  I have spoke to some people about this, and the way we see it is that this coil is more less a step up transformer,  It consist of 3 primary phases,(all switching at different intervals and all set at different frequencies) and 1 secondary, which this is where it appears to me that it is producing the 3 different frequencies along with voltage spikes.  Boyce claims to be operating this cell  at 200 volts at 60 amps with the volts starting at 150 ac volts from the inverter, and producing 45 or more litres.  So I don't know but this is what I will be working toward, and I will try to keep you posted on how I progress.

I hate it when people quote stuff and don't  take what ya ment but the words only , so I seldom ever use the option of "Quoting" a person so please forgive me in this case <GRIN>
 ...
I did read about the 3 different fazes that Boyce used and because of the resonance
it upped his output a huge amount....
 but all in all, he is calming 45LPM at 60 amps ! do you realize that ?....
that is 15LPM at 20 amps !!!!!!!!!!!
Far be it from me to say that word "IMPOSABLE!" but Man I dunno ,that one really stretches the imagination !  any thing is possible but good grief...  thats more production per amp than the arc generator !...and as far as I know that is the worlds best Hydroxy producer!
... at this stage I am thinking along the same lines as Manta and "Snake-oil"
but that doesn't mean you can't make a big cell that will produce allot of Hydroxy gas out of it !  simply because you have the plate area now, you just need the Hellacious Amprage it will take to make high LPM...and that CAN be done if all else fails, so if Bob Boyces
Mirical cure to the LPM problem doesn't work for you remember there is always the brute force method and that is about 400amps (to get your 40LPM)
so don't give up even if that method don't work !
...
 When I read what he did I was impressed with his abilities because I can't do that stuff anymore, and I doubt I could even get to first base trying to make his PWM... and sense I have made Troidial coils before I wouldn't even attempt to make the Monster he made up, so if you can buy it then do !!!! especially with 3 seperate fazeing coils in it!
...
but Keep in mind Manta's Calculations for the wattage needed when you get all your eggs in one basket you don't want to burn it all up in the first "Smoke test!"
...
I'm rootin' fer ya ! and I hope it works but in all honnesty I don't see how it can !
I'ed go the brute force method and be done with it ! it would probly cost you the same in the long run ! <GRIN>
sorry for the wet blanket on the party!
good luck !
Bob......

[hg2]

  RoadKing I know what you mean there,once you're butt-deep in it there's no turning back.I do envy you because I lack the necessary electronics background to attempt a project this complicated.I've read pdfs and Boyce's posts on the Water Fuel Cell forum(before he asked they be deleted following the death of his daughter)until I was crosseyed LOL.The schematics are too much for someone with no electronics background to attempt.

  I can't believe the deal you got on the toroidal coil for $380 that's great.Did you buy a 6.5 like the one Boyce used or smaller?Most of the pdfs I've read said they could run a couple thousand(inclding having someone wind it),that's one thing that discouraged me the most,and of course the cost of all the 316L LOL.

  Good luck with the build and of course keep us all posted on your progress.
  

[ROADKING]

Well, I have no knowledge of electronics either, in fact I had some people to come in my shop and tell me they knew how to build pwms ect.  I asked them to build me one, offer to pay in advance and beleive this or not they have not been back in since, and they were coming in every 2 or three days now they do not bother me at all......lol. which may be a good thing.  I have got a friend who is in this with me who owns a machine shop and is very good at what he does.  He has found us a ss suppllier who will laser cut the ss at a reasonable price.  But in the end we have still spent a lot of money if you know what i mean, and really no where yet. So I guess we will keep trying and see where it goes.  We have built I would guess 24 different cells and we ussually try every one that someone suggest on this web site, So far the best I have built was the wet cell, I put 13 2x3 plates for one cell and parrallel 5 of them in the same bath, it produced well but not what we wanted, mad a torch out of it blowed it up 3 times befor it started working..lol. Today we are making the bubblers for the big cell and then we will start the wiring process and see what we can make it produce off of a bridge rectifier at 220 volts at start of 30 amps and go from there, I will keep you informed of my progress on that.

[hg2]

  Roadking you didn't mention where you got your iron powder core.I looked into buying one last year and the site I found them on had a laundry list of questions regarding why I wanted to buy one.

[ROADKING]

Micrometals is who i spoke to, and they cost @ $50.00 and that is a 61/2 in outside diameter.  Plus shipping, I think from California.

[hg2]

  Yep the T650-52 that's the correct one to use.Do you also have the sources for the correct winding tape and the solid teflon-coated silver plated copper wire.The winding tape is especially important because using the wrong winding tape can cause the secondary winding to reverse polarity which will reduce the signal amplitude and suppress the acoustoresonance response.Whatever you do don't use fiberglass winding tape,or the entire coil will have to be rewrapped.

[Manta]

...The winding tape is especially important because using the wrong winding tape can cause the secondary winding to reverse polarity...

Could you explain just how it does that ?

Manta

[ROADKING]

APEXJR.COM On their web site they have the wiring kit and I think it was call Bouce's car kit.

[hg2]

...The winding tape is especially important because using the wrong winding tape can cause the secondary winding to reverse polarity...

Could you explain just how it does that ?

Manta

         They say it causes eltrostactic pulse response to reverse polarity to the secondary windings.It's not really known why it causes this,possibly because the secondary windings are single phase where as the primary windings are 3 phase.Bob Boyce himself said he wasn't sure why this phenomenon occurs.One thing he was sure of though is that using the fiberglass winding tape is what caused it.

  These are some of the problems you can run into if you've never built one.Another big mistake made is not making sure your windings go counterclockwise,there's a long list of do's and don'ts when building a toroidal coil.If not done precisely all your time and money was for nought.

[hg2]

APEXJR.COM On their web site they have the wiring kit and I think it was call Bouce's car kit.

  Roadking are you sure the wiring kit listed on APEXJR.COM is adaquete for wiring a 6.5" core?The one Boyce built specifies using only solid 16 ga. teflon-covered silver plated copper wire.Most of the toroids listed on that site (that I saw) were half the size of the one you're building.

[ROADKING]

They have the correct wire for the Bob Boyce cell, I think they called it the Bob Boyce car kit

[hg2]

They have the correct wire for the Bob Boyce cell, I think they called it the Bob Boyce car kit

  I went back to the site and found it.I was looking for the wire where the coils were listed(duuuh).At $0.48 per ft I guess you'll need almost a $100.00 worth to wind it.The secondary alone takes over 100 ft and with the primarys going over them you may need more than 200 ft.,it that about the same figure you have?

[ROADKING]

Yes, but, I think (not sure) that the primary legs were of smaller and a different wire, I will have to read my instructions from the Bob Boyce files. Which you probably have.  I am not going to build the first one I am purchasing it at $380.00.  The Core was going to cost $50.00, $15.00 for shipping, Guessing another $150.00 for wiring, $50.00 for tape $25.00 bees wax, and a whole lot of tedious work, this is my estimate, so I spoke to a person building the coils, and now he has supposedly sent to Bob Boyce for testing and when he gets the OK on them he is to send me one with the pwm and schematics so I can continue.

[hg2]

    I totally agree,why suffer with building one when you can get one ready to go for $380.There are some things that just don't pay to DIY HAHA.

[ROADKING]

OK, here is the problem for today, I just hook up this cell to 220dc volts,  it pulled no amps to start, then it got up .6 yes 6 tenths of an amp and appeared to be making hho, this was with positive at one end and neg at the other leaving 99 neutral plates.  I then wired it up with 3 positive and 4 negatives has I have terminals  on this where I can wire in about any configuration. It the went to 30 amps, so then I tried the two end plates as positive and the rest of the 99 plates as negs, and it is now boiling water,  I have experienced in the past once you boil water you have to start over for it acts as a dead short.  So now I am about to start over and go with new water and 1 positive 99 neutrals, and one negative, I will let you know how this works then.  All of your input will be greatly appreciated.  And this is with pure distilled water supposedly that I bought at Kroger,

[Bob]

Very Interesting !
30amps with just distilled water( no KOH/electrolyte) is saying something indeed !
...
I don't know what to say about the boiling water... other than it doesn't sound right !
...
I would have thought you would hook up the cell with a max concentration of electrolyte
and use a PWM to control the amperage, that way reducing heat in the resistance in the water to as low as you can get it. reducing your chance of boiling the water.
but if you don't have a PWM then all you can do is adjust the electrolyte to control the amp draw...OR play with different plate configurations, as you saw , you can change the amp draw by
hooking up the plates in different ways.
...
even if your output from each plate looks quite low... you still stand a good chance of having a great output per amp used because of the available plate area...
finding the combonation of right hookups is more than likely the key to getting the most out of that cell...
...
to reduce heat you need to reduce the resistance in the water, doing that will make it nessarry to use a PWM.
...
I think if you can get 3LPM from 30 amps you'll be doing great... and that is probly the best you will get... simply because the 10amps per 1 LPM that we alwayse run accross in this game
...However unlike other cells that cell will be able to handle HUGE amounts of amperage
and yeld you very large outputs..
I feel that to expect large outputs on low amperage is asking too much, it takes the bigger power raitings to make the bigger outputs.
....
BE CAREFULL  what your playing with is "Dangerous" one false move could electrocute your butt
keep one hand in your Pocket when that thing is ON !
....
good luck !
and please keep us informed
.....
Bob......