Plate Spaceing

[Bob]

Not so much a Myth but needed info and unfortionately this info veries from site to site!
I have read where plate spaceing at 1/4" is best and I have read where 1/8" is best
and I'm here to tell ya that it all depends on the cell and the amperage you plan to run through it.
...
A few things happen when you have plates stacked close together the first and foremost is the continuity between the plates is higher the closer you place them...
 this gives you the ability to draw higher amps if the plates are closer together with a weaker concentration of electrolyte...
 However don't think that it doesn't matter how far apart you place the plates because you can just increase the richness of the electrolyte to make up for it... because there is a point of saturation of the water and adding more KOH to it changes nothing... which means you can only get so much conductivity out of the electrolyte !...
so taking that into account, making a cell with 1/4" plate spacing seams fool-hearty at best simply because the production will be low even if you have the maximum concentration of KOH to water (28% by weight I believe) you will still not be able to draw tat many amps to get good production...
so... closer spacing is generally used 1/8" is common however even at that spacing drawing 60amps becomes a problem...  I personally like 1/16" or closer 1/32" is about perfect in my view but it is totally impractical on some type of cells ! heat distortion of the metal will make the plates flex that much and touch, so there is a trade off...
 as close as possible but not too close is a very safe spacing ! <GRIN>
I've even had my "Randy cells at 0.010" spacing and they work great ! but I have not tried that with a larger square plate cell...
...
 I feel that the closer the plates are the better off you are, however that is just personal opinion
and not a proven fact...
what is true is that the wider the spaceing the harder it is to draw higher amperage
the closer the spacing the easier it is to draw high amperage.
infact on the "Typical Randy Cell" when first assembled with tight spacing that they have its common to draw 15 amps on straight tap water...but not using Distilled De-mineralized water will cause goo formation in the cell... even if no KOH or any additives are used.
so with Distilled water you can reach 20 amp draw with a Randy cell with a Pinch of KOH or just a few flakes !
thats because of the close spaceing of the plates.
the typical DRY cell usually has 1/8" spaceing between the plates and is therefore limited in how many amps you can make it draw....usually you can get enough amp draw for your desired output, but not allwayse ...infact Some guys have ran into a limit in the amps they can draw through the cell because of the saturation point of the water used and cannot get any higher output because of that...
that leaves them with only one recourse and that is a complete tear down and use thinner gaskets to make the plate spacing less than it was !
....
so when planning a cell project be sure to consider the plate spaceing  2MM to 3MM used to be the recomended spacing but now it has shrunk to about 1/16" ( or less)
some say that with that close of spacing the bubbles can't escape, and I totally disagree on that because the bubbles are very very small... its more like a cloud  of tiny bubbles not like blowing bubbles from a straw... so the size of the bubbles makes the spacing, at a very close spacings, quite practical.

....
There are 2 things that effect the amp draw of a cell, assuming the connecting wires are of ample size. that is the space between the plates,and the electrolyte/water concentration. 
So once the cell is built all you have left is the electrolyte concentration to adjust, and if you can't go far enough with that, then your stuck to maximum concentration at what ever amperage that gives you.
...

Bob......
 

[Rodman]

First time here for me. Hello to all. (If any).
Built a Flooded Tero. 7 neutrals. NAOH not sure how much but I used plenty. Whole house filter for the bubbler filled to a point about an inch above the gas inlet line. (Slightly above the top of the cell).  Lower hole going to lowest point on the cell. Both sides of the cell. Gas line is on both sides of the cell and connected with a "Tee" connector going to bubbler too.
First run with 35 amp power supply ran for 45 minutes at 13.03 volts and 8.9 amps and put out 1.8 lpm. Have done some tweeking with the gasket thickness (went to .022) and ran 13.0 volts and 9.75 amps and went to 2.22 lpm. Before the tweeking the spacing was closer to .065.
Ran for a little over 3 hours. The heat wasn't measured but not  too hot to hold on to. 
 
 

[numberonekiwi]

Welcome Rodman

Sounds like you are getting good production from your cell most here are getting 1LPM per 10 Amps you seem to be nearly double that so that is great news but using NAOH is not the ideal chemical to use it will form a brown goo best bet is try KOH or as Bob uses Lemonaid Koolaid ( I haven't tried this myself dont think we get it here in NZ )but then again this could be why your LPM is quite high

Do you have plate sizes , When you say 7 neutrals is your configeration + n n n n n n n - ?

Keep up the good work if you have good that amount of output from such a low input you are well on your way to 100% hydroxy

[Rodman]

I agree about the naoh. I ordered koh and it arrived today. Can't wait to try it out when I get home from work.
Plate size is 200mm x 160mm. I tried the koolaid in a Randy cell I put together earlier. I mixed it too strong. Hooked it to a battery and the leads got so hot within 15 seconds I had to disconnect. Tried it in the Tero and didn't have any luck with it.

[Rodman]

Correct on plate configuration.

[Bob]

Welcome Rodman !
glad to have you with us !
...
Sounds like you made the correct adjustments on that cell to get that kind of output
needless to say that is fantastic output ! 2.22LPM at 9.75amps is unhurd of effeciency!
WELL DONE ! and congrats !
 I am wondering how you measured the output, weather it was the old pop bottle method in a bucket and a stop watch or a flow meter?
...
if you have a pic of your setup and care to, you can post it here for all of us to drool over!,who knows we might even spot a problem in the makings for ya.
...
 best output I've ever gotten is 1LPM per 10 amps, with only a slight rise from that going up to a max of 30 amps...
...
Have you hooked it to your vehicle yet ?
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

I agree about the naoh. I ordered koh and it arrived today. Can't wait to try it out when I get home from work.
Plate size is 200mm x 160mm. I tried the koolaid in a Randy cell I put together earlier. I mixed it too strong. Hooked it to a battery and the leads got so hot within 15 seconds I had to disconnect. Tried it in the Tero and didn't have any luck with it.

  Yeah koolaid and citric acid won't work for dry cell designs.The voltage is there but the amps are absent.I tried both using different strength's and could never get it to work.

[Rodman]

The output was measured with a 2 liter pop bottle and I timed it with the wall clock in my shop. Don't have any pictures, but I took a video of it the very first time I ran it. I'm on a mobile connection at work now. Can't get any of the posted pictures. Don't think I can put my video out for you to see.
Not hooked up to the truck yet.
 I did hook it up for a couple of minutes to a port just above the butterfly valve, didn't hear any change in the rpm. Not sure when I'm gonna have to do any truck modifications. Dont think I'll have to change anything with 2 lpm. I just don't know.

[numberonekiwi]

I ran you figures through the MMW calculator website and got 17.x MMW that  I think is the highest yet would be fantastic to see some pics / videos

[Rodman]

I'll take some pictures after I get it put back together. Had a gasket leak while conditioning plates.
I found the "sweet spot" for the plate spacing while the cell was running. Started it up and watched the amp meter then started squeezing the gaskets until the current started to climb. Kept going till it dropped then backed it off till I hit max current again.

[Bob]

Very SMART MOVE Rodman ! great way to tune in the cell , that should realy help a great deal
I amagon most of the Dry cells could be Peeked like that ! thanks for the info !
...
Bob...

[Rodman]

Anyone know when it`s necessary to make tuning mods? How much can I produce before the computer defeats my efforts?
I plan to put the unit on a 2008 F-150 4wd.

[Rodman]

Bob, should I be posting in a different area?

[Bob]

As far as I'm concerned you can post anywhere, even in the photo section...  EXCEPT the plans section, because I am trying to keep that as brief as possible so people can find the plans fast... if ya post something there,not being plans, I'll move it somewhere else... but thats all  heheheheh
...Sure try to keep your postings in the proper section and there is a section for Modification to the automobile's computer... but if ya don't its no biggy.  I think you can move your post if you want to but not positive on that. (been a while sense I used the user mode <GRIN>)
or if ya want I can move it for ya, but as I said its no big deal...
its just that I am trying to keep some simblance of order to this mess <GRIN>
keeping everything on one subject is almost impossable and thoughts usually wander anyway
so I am not POLICEING where you post unless it winds up in the "plans section"
the Photo section sometimes has questions about the photo posted and leaving comments there
help others to understand better, so I havn't had to do much to that.
...
Now to answer your question... I think if you want to see ANY improvement in gasmilage in your ford 4x4 you will have to make modifications to it right off the bat..
anything with fuel injection in it is Notorious for negateing the effects of Hydroxy gas
for verious reasons...
when I put my Hydroxy unit on my Toyota pickup 2LPM at 20 amps on a 2.4liter R22 engine
the effects were noticable, the truck ran crisper, climbed the hills better but DID not give me any change in gasmilage after the 3rd day... the first day it was way up there in the 40mpg range ! but as the computer learned about it the more the milage droped till it finally settled to about 27mpg where it used to be 24... so there was a small improvement
later I attacked the O2 sensor and MAF sensor and then I saw real improvements  up to about 38 to 40mpg.... after that I played with cell configurations and wound up having to take the unit off because of the freezing tempitures up here... and so there I set.
...
although any Hydroxy gas will help your engine run better, chances are you will need about 8 to 12LPM to get good gasmilage out of your truck... BUT You will not see it if you go out there and plug in 12LPM and go for a drive.... you have to reduce the Gasoline the engine USUALLY gets while running or it will just dump it through the engine anyway... thats the major problem that we all face... and it isn't an easy one to beat
each car is slightly diferent, most of them react diferently and so the modifications are diferent for almost every make !
 My Toyota R22 engine needed an O2 "Condom" to get it to quit reporting false info.
a Mass air valve adjustment, and a "Matt Valve"  God only knows what your Ford will need
but be asured that sense its a big engine you will need a great deal of Hydroxy gas to make good gasmilage I am speaking as 40 to 75MPG as being good gas milage, not a mear 10% improvement and Yes you could get 75MPG out of that truck if you realy do it right ...
 I am convinced of that ! Hydrotech on the other forum did get 74mpg on his big truck but he realy modified the fuel delevery system in it too... as he said "you have to lean out the gasoline if your ever going to see ANY improvement!"  and I believe he got it Right!
....
many people are useing the O2 sensor mods as well as the MAF inhansors which allow you to adjust the fuel being used... but I have not seen the RAW gains that Hydrotech got by useing these doohickies....and I am a bit skeptical on weather they work or not... that is why I went with Mechanical changes on my truck... after I took the Hydroxy cell off I was supprized to discover that my truck now gets 28mpg all the time with out the Hydroxy unit on there!
with it I should get 40+ MPG....
when I started this the MPG base-line was 22 to 24 MPG
....
so I have made good improvements, but I am just starting... wait till I get it going on 100% hydroxy gas and NO gasoline ... on that day I will PARTY !!!!!!
HAHAHHAHAHA
....
Bob....

[Rodman]

I got the flooded tero back together with a differant configuration for testing. Put it together with two cells in one package. +nnnnn-nnnnn+. Got a late start but here`s what`s going on. Running with KOH. Started at 13.02 volt 2.55 amp. Measured plate voltage. 2.16, 4.24, 6.34, 8.52, 10.57, 12.73, 10.6, 8.49, 6.38, 4.31, 2.19.
 At 2.62 amps I got .588LPM. 5.24 amp=1.24LPM. 6.28 amp=1.53LPM. Hardly any heat yet.
Pretty late now & I have to go in. I`ll continue conditioning the plates tomorrow and try to get the current up a bit higher. I`ll try to get some pictures & post.

[Bob]

WHOLEY MOLEY Rodman !
thats incredible !  KEEP AFTER THAT ONE ! WOW!
thats is a Super produceing cell ! Please post the details !
plate size, and configuration and everything PLEASE !
I am sure there's guys here that will try to replicate it !
I think YOU have a Winner there !
...
Bob...........

[Rodman]

Finished for the night (have to go back to work in the morning).
Been running the cell for close to 10 hours. Got the current a little higher, 13.5 amps. It was pushing the power supply and the voltage dropped to 12.9 volts. (Maxed out). That put the production rate to 2.733 lpm. I took some pictures but can`t figure out how to post em yet. I`ll try again when I get more time.

[numberonekiwi]

Nice going Rodman but it seems that your last test has slightly dropped of on MMW not sure if you have used the calculator but here it is

http://www.watervan.co.uk/tools.php

You did peek at 18 in your previous test so maybe 13.5 amps is just a little to much

[Rodman]

I ran a bunch more test numbers thru the MMW calculator. Different results every time. Don`t know what the calculator is telling me.  Can you explain it to me?

[Rodman]

No need to explain now. Got the final parts in the mail yesterday and everything is installed plus a full tank of gas. Running about 4.2LPM. I'll know in a few days if I get any gain.

[Bob]

Remember Rodman... not every vehicle will show gains right off the bat ! especially if its fuel injected ! you may need to do something with the O2 sensor and or the MAF sensor...
getting it hooked up is the starting point...not the end point! from there you can tell what you need to do next ...usually...
Almost alwayse it takes a combonation of O2 sensor mods and MAF sensor mods...
the O2 sensor mods trick the cars computer from thinking the engine is running too lean and dumping in MORE gasoline to not dumping in any extra gasoline at all....
and the MAF sensor is to lean out the already exhisting fuel supply to a more reasonable level
so your addition of Hydroxy gas will actually show you some gains in MPG...
...
the O2 sensor ( Oxygen sensor on the exhost system)
and the MAF (Mass Air Flow Sensor, on the throttle body usually) both make or brake the workings of the Hydroxy generator.
the larger your engine is to begin with the more Hydroxy gas it will take to make a big diference... such as doubleing your MPG....
...
I put my 2LPM cell on my 2.5liter toyota truck and did not notice any changes at all if anything my MPG went down a little.... I covered the O2 sensor with a steel tube and put it back in and tested it and got 38mpg the very next fill up...
I then modified the MAF sensor by adjusting it a small amount and got 40MPG...
then I added a "Matt Valve" and got close to 45mpg I think ... but about then my cell started messing up and LPM went way down!
...
so  don't be discurraged if your MPG isn't way up there on the first try !
my MPG used to be a consistant 22 to 24MPG...depending on the load in the pickup...
with the cell and mods I was getting a consistant 38 to 40 mpg depending on the load...
so it is well worth the effort...
this summer I hope to make 80mpg or 100% hydroxy powered...but we shall see what happens!
....
hang in there !
Bob.......

[Rodman]

Good advice. Thanks. I did run a little less than a tank full last week with Hydroxy and the mileage went down by almost three MPG. (That hurt.) Thats when I ordered the dual O2 enhancer. Trying to get that figured out is a bit of a challenge. But I'll keep plugging along. Hopefully I'll start showing some improvement now.
I found a problem with the initial test results. The 35 amp power supply I used for the tests has sockets for plugging in two VOM's. One for voltage and one for current. The one for current apparently needs calibrated. That's why I had such impressive test results. It's way off. When I ran the new numbers thru the calculator I got about average results. Sorry about the misinformation. 

[Bob]

No problem Rodman !
glad you found that it was off...saves others fromthinking you came up with something super special, building one and getting nothing but avrage results ! that is what hurts ! <GRIN>
thanks for being Honnest and telling us !
....
I have not  to-date tried one of the "O2 enhansers".... in all Honnesty I don't trust the things
I seriously doubt that they have enough adjustment in them, although they may well have... I simply don't know ! but it seams to me that everyone that tries them only gets a small increase in MPG over their normal mpg before they started... Now I don't know if thats because they are hooking their Hydroxy unit to a Huge engine, and their lucky to get that much improvement ...or if the O2 Enhansors just arn't doing all they could....
...
As I've said many times before I put a steel "Condom" over the single O2 sensor on my truck...and I know very well that it fits tight enough to stop the sensor from sampleing ANYTHING from the exhost
but sense its still heated by the exhost it doesn't give me an error... I doubt this method would work on all units, and probly only work on a few years of toyota trucks... because they change the electrics in the models so often....
but.....
 it is possable that you have more than one O2 sensor and that you could use the Steel "Condom" on both of them and you might get better results than with the O2 Enhansor... then again you may not get as good of results.... I just don't know at this time.
...
the thing that realy seamed to make a very big diference on my truck was the "Matt Valve"
 Randy's Cuzin' or relitive of some sort I think, was who came up with the idea (more than likely Randy figured it out and they desided to try it on his truck <GRIN>) but in the picture section I believe I drew in the "matt valve" on a photo of my pickup... and its so simple anyone can make one with only a few parts and some RTV Silicone to make it air tight.
...this IDEA can be adapted to almost ANY fuel injected engine because it is just a BY-Pass around the Mass Air Flow sensor... alowing some air by the sensor... this in THEORY should lean out what the computer squirts into the engine in gasoline...in ALL throttle positions... not just idle
this is what we need to attain better gas milage, but care must be used with such a valve as you can lean it out too much and cause the engine to missfire and over heat... and can do serious dammage to the engine.
... So far I havn't had the slightest problem with my "Matt Valve" except that the adjustment is very touchy.... a smaller valve and hose might actually help that and make it easier to adjust.
(say a 1/2" i.d. hose instead of a 3/4" hose)
....
Keep after it you WILL get better results !.... I did !
...
Bob......

[Rodman]

That'll be the next thing I'll try then. I'm gonna fill up tonight & see if I have any improvement. I need to get on line when I get home and see if I can find some pictures of the Matt Valve and get some more details on my truck.
Do you know if anyone has had any luck with an enhancer from the MAP sensor?

[Bob]

Not sure but I think Hg2 has one on his truck, and I'm fairly certain Scratch does...
but Not sure how good they work !
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

  The map enhancer I have doesn't help very much regarding mileage gains,what it does help with is keeping the peace between my pre and post cat efie's and the ecm.What I found is that keeping the map enhancer turned down low(in saying low I mean if the map en. had numbers on it for settings it would be set on 1to 1 1/2) prevents the ecm from setting codes using the efie's.I think that sometimes the ecm looks at the map before making a final decision for computing afr's and may refer back to the map data after the O2s data to check parameters.I'm just guessing this but what I do know is that the map en. helps when using an efie on my vehicle.

[Bob]

Hg2: I'm thinkin' your setup ain't doing ya justice at all... you got 1LPM per liter
or very close to it... and with that I got up to 40mpg... theirs a slight difference in the TONNAGE between our 2 trucks but the engine should work on the same ratios !
I used to get 22 and got 40 both figures are on the low side...
you got 12 and only got 13mpg  I'ed have thought you should have gotten 24 to 25mpg...
in effect Doubleing your MPG... but that hasn't happened...
so what is the problem there ? have you not leaned out the gasoline going into the engine at all ?....one of those goodies you have there should lean out the engine...
from what you were just saying it sounds like you are only trying to fight the O2 sensors
and havn't touched the rich /leanness of the fuel mix yet....
 if thats the case you won't see any real gains untill you lean that big engine out some !
because the computer will just pump the gas through the engine weather it wants it or not...
  I am totally convinced that the Ford Chevy dodge and GM pickups are set to gobble fuel at a certain rait regardless of the burn... ( its money in their pocket because they own oil stock! )...
 but it doesn't have to be that way...
 I had a 350 ford 1/2ton with a 4spd stick that I fixed up when I got it it was getting 11 to 12 MPG loaded with stuff or empty..it alwayse got that !   I talked to a friend of mine and his pickup was getting 20 to 24mpg...with the same engine and trans, but with a lower geared rear end. other wize it was the same animal... so I tore into my carberator and discovered that there were passage ways that allowed extra fuel to flow into the air stream if even the tinyiest bit of dirt made the check ball stick.... I cured that by plugging the passage with a wooden match stick on both sides.... and also repaired the accelerator pump that was leaking.... my milage went up to 18mpg and stayed there under load or not...
its called "they get ya comeing and going!"   I did finally get up to 20mpg with the truck before I sold it by putting on larger exhost pipes...3" ones but couldn't afford the needed headders! so I used the stock exhost manifolds...  but I finally got 20mpg and it started to matter weather I was loaded or not  if I was loaded I'ed get 18mpg if I was empty I'ed get 20 +... ...so I was getting fairly close to having it right... I think if it were right I would have gotten 25MPG empty...
But that is a Old carberated engine and this Fuel injected stuff is harder to track down that sort of stuff....
 for one there are no passages to plug with wooden match sticks like I did ! <GRIN>
but you need to find WHAT is causeing the thing to dump raw fuel into the engine at ALL times  and I think we already know the answer to that...the computer !...
You realy need to be able to adjust the computer on that truck !  or buy a after market chip to slap in there to get rid of their gas hungry schiem...
Yes its a big truck and it works hard but that doesn't mean you can't get decent milage out of it.... for that truck you should be able to get 15 to 18mpg  to begin with...
and you know as well as I do you'll never get that without modification ! ...they don't want you to!
...
  the 1972 ford f-100  that I had was simple to work on... it only had a PCV valve on it for smog and a filter on the oil breather !...thats it !
today we have so much more to contend with its just plane silly ! but useing the older trucks as a guide I know we can do better than what they brag about on tv ! HAHAHHAHA
and then add the Hydroxy unit and double your already GOOD gasmilage for that truck and then you'll realy have something !....
...
Most guys that have those big Duelies Love them and wouldn't trade them fer nuttin' and I understand that.... but don't think just because its "that type" that you can't get better gas milage...because you can !
.... now weather its legal or not is something else ! HAHAHAHHAHA
...
Bob......