Plate Spaceing

[Bob]

Not so much a Myth but needed info and unfortionately this info veries from site to site!
I have read where plate spaceing at 1/4" is best and I have read where 1/8" is best
and I'm here to tell ya that it all depends on the cell and the amperage you plan to run through it.
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A few things happen when you have plates stacked close together the first and foremost is the continuity between the plates is higher the closer you place them...
 this gives you the ability to draw higher amps if the plates are closer together with a weaker concentration of electrolyte...
 However don't think that it doesn't matter how far apart you place the plates because you can just increase the richness of the electrolyte to make up for it... because there is a point of saturation of the water and adding more KOH to it changes nothing... which means you can only get so much conductivity out of the electrolyte !...
so taking that into account, making a cell with 1/4" plate spacing seams fool-hearty at best simply because the production will be low even if you have the maximum concentration of KOH to water (28% by weight I believe) you will still not be able to draw tat many amps to get good production...
so... closer spacing is generally used 1/8" is common however even at that spacing drawing 60amps becomes a problem...  I personally like 1/16" or closer 1/32" is about perfect in my view but it is totally impractical on some type of cells ! heat distortion of the metal will make the plates flex that much and touch, so there is a trade off...
 as close as possible but not too close is a very safe spacing ! <GRIN>
I've even had my "Randy cells at 0.010" spacing and they work great ! but I have not tried that with a larger square plate cell...
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 I feel that the closer the plates are the better off you are, however that is just personal opinion
and not a proven fact...
what is true is that the wider the spaceing the harder it is to draw higher amperage
the closer the spacing the easier it is to draw high amperage.
infact on the "Typical Randy Cell" when first assembled with tight spacing that they have its common to draw 15 amps on straight tap water...but not using Distilled De-mineralized water will cause goo formation in the cell... even if no KOH or any additives are used.
so with Distilled water you can reach 20 amp draw with a Randy cell with a Pinch of KOH or just a few flakes !
thats because of the close spaceing of the plates.
the typical DRY cell usually has 1/8" spaceing between the plates and is therefore limited in how many amps you can make it draw....usually you can get enough amp draw for your desired output, but not allwayse ...infact Some guys have ran into a limit in the amps they can draw through the cell because of the saturation point of the water used and cannot get any higher output because of that...
that leaves them with only one recourse and that is a complete tear down and use thinner gaskets to make the plate spacing less than it was !
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so when planning a cell project be sure to consider the plate spaceing  2MM to 3MM used to be the recomended spacing but now it has shrunk to about 1/16" ( or less)
some say that with that close of spacing the bubbles can't escape, and I totally disagree on that because the bubbles are very very small... its more like a cloud  of tiny bubbles not like blowing bubbles from a straw... so the size of the bubbles makes the spacing, at a very close spacings, quite practical.

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There are 2 things that effect the amp draw of a cell, assuming the connecting wires are of ample size. that is the space between the plates,and the electrolyte/water concentration. 
So once the cell is built all you have left is the electrolyte concentration to adjust, and if you can't go far enough with that, then your stuck to maximum concentration at what ever amperage that gives you.
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Bob......
 

[Rodman]

First time here for me. Hello to all. (If any).
Built a Flooded Tero. 7 neutrals. NAOH not sure how much but I used plenty. Whole house filter for the bubbler filled to a point about an inch above the gas inlet line. (Slightly above the top of the cell).  Lower hole going to lowest point on the cell. Both sides of the cell. Gas line is on both sides of the cell and connected with a "Tee" connector going to bubbler too.
First run with 35 amp power supply ran for 45 minutes at 13.03 volts and 8.9 amps and put out 1.8 lpm. Have done some tweeking with the gasket thickness (went to .022) and ran 13.0 volts and 9.75 amps and went to 2.22 lpm. Before the tweeking the spacing was closer to .065.
Ran for a little over 3 hours. The heat wasn't measured but not  too hot to hold on to. 
 
 

[numberonekiwi]

Welcome Rodman

Sounds like you are getting good production from your cell most here are getting 1LPM per 10 Amps you seem to be nearly double that so that is great news but using NAOH is not the ideal chemical to use it will form a brown goo best bet is try KOH or as Bob uses Lemonaid Koolaid ( I haven't tried this myself dont think we get it here in NZ )but then again this could be why your LPM is quite high

Do you have plate sizes , When you say 7 neutrals is your configeration + n n n n n n n - ?

Keep up the good work if you have good that amount of output from such a low input you are well on your way to 100% hydroxy

[Rodman]

I agree about the naoh. I ordered koh and it arrived today. Can't wait to try it out when I get home from work.
Plate size is 200mm x 160mm. I tried the koolaid in a Randy cell I put together earlier. I mixed it too strong. Hooked it to a battery and the leads got so hot within 15 seconds I had to disconnect. Tried it in the Tero and didn't have any luck with it.

[Rodman]

Correct on plate configuration.

[Bob]

Welcome Rodman !
glad to have you with us !
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Sounds like you made the correct adjustments on that cell to get that kind of output
needless to say that is fantastic output ! 2.22LPM at 9.75amps is unhurd of effeciency!
WELL DONE ! and congrats !
 I am wondering how you measured the output, weather it was the old pop bottle method in a bucket and a stop watch or a flow meter?
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if you have a pic of your setup and care to, you can post it here for all of us to drool over!,who knows we might even spot a problem in the makings for ya.
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 best output I've ever gotten is 1LPM per 10 amps, with only a slight rise from that going up to a max of 30 amps...
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Have you hooked it to your vehicle yet ?
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

I agree about the naoh. I ordered koh and it arrived today. Can't wait to try it out when I get home from work.
Plate size is 200mm x 160mm. I tried the koolaid in a Randy cell I put together earlier. I mixed it too strong. Hooked it to a battery and the leads got so hot within 15 seconds I had to disconnect. Tried it in the Tero and didn't have any luck with it.

  Yeah koolaid and citric acid won't work for dry cell designs.The voltage is there but the amps are absent.I tried both using different strength's and could never get it to work.

[Rodman]

The output was measured with a 2 liter pop bottle and I timed it with the wall clock in my shop. Don't have any pictures, but I took a video of it the very first time I ran it. I'm on a mobile connection at work now. Can't get any of the posted pictures. Don't think I can put my video out for you to see.
Not hooked up to the truck yet.
 I did hook it up for a couple of minutes to a port just above the butterfly valve, didn't hear any change in the rpm. Not sure when I'm gonna have to do any truck modifications. Dont think I'll have to change anything with 2 lpm. I just don't know.

[numberonekiwi]

I ran you figures through the MMW calculator website and got 17.x MMW that  I think is the highest yet would be fantastic to see some pics / videos

[Rodman]

I'll take some pictures after I get it put back together. Had a gasket leak while conditioning plates.
I found the "sweet spot" for the plate spacing while the cell was running. Started it up and watched the amp meter then started squeezing the gaskets until the current started to climb. Kept going till it dropped then backed it off till I hit max current again.

[Bob]

Very SMART MOVE Rodman ! great way to tune in the cell , that should realy help a great deal
I amagon most of the Dry cells could be Peeked like that ! thanks for the info !
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Bob...

[Rodman]

Anyone know when it`s necessary to make tuning mods? How much can I produce before the computer defeats my efforts?
I plan to put the unit on a 2008 F-150 4wd.

[Rodman]

Bob, should I be posting in a different area?

[Bob]

As far as I'm concerned you can post anywhere, even in the photo section...  EXCEPT the plans section, because I am trying to keep that as brief as possible so people can find the plans fast... if ya post something there,not being plans, I'll move it somewhere else... but thats all  heheheheh
...Sure try to keep your postings in the proper section and there is a section for Modification to the automobile's computer... but if ya don't its no biggy.  I think you can move your post if you want to but not positive on that. (been a while sense I used the user mode <GRIN>)
or if ya want I can move it for ya, but as I said its no big deal...
its just that I am trying to keep some simblance of order to this mess <GRIN>
keeping everything on one subject is almost impossable and thoughts usually wander anyway
so I am not POLICEING where you post unless it winds up in the "plans section"
the Photo section sometimes has questions about the photo posted and leaving comments there
help others to understand better, so I havn't had to do much to that.
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Now to answer your question... I think if you want to see ANY improvement in gasmilage in your ford 4x4 you will have to make modifications to it right off the bat..
anything with fuel injection in it is Notorious for negateing the effects of Hydroxy gas
for verious reasons...
when I put my Hydroxy unit on my Toyota pickup 2LPM at 20 amps on a 2.4liter R22 engine
the effects were noticable, the truck ran crisper, climbed the hills better but DID not give me any change in gasmilage after the 3rd day... the first day it was way up there in the 40mpg range ! but as the computer learned about it the more the milage droped till it finally settled to about 27mpg where it used to be 24... so there was a small improvement
later I attacked the O2 sensor and MAF sensor and then I saw real improvements  up to about 38 to 40mpg.... after that I played with cell configurations and wound up having to take the unit off because of the freezing tempitures up here... and so there I set.
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although any Hydroxy gas will help your engine run better, chances are you will need about 8 to 12LPM to get good gasmilage out of your truck... BUT You will not see it if you go out there and plug in 12LPM and go for a drive.... you have to reduce the Gasoline the engine USUALLY gets while running or it will just dump it through the engine anyway... thats the major problem that we all face... and it isn't an easy one to beat
each car is slightly diferent, most of them react diferently and so the modifications are diferent for almost every make !
 My Toyota R22 engine needed an O2 "Condom" to get it to quit reporting false info.
a Mass air valve adjustment, and a "Matt Valve"  God only knows what your Ford will need
but be asured that sense its a big engine you will need a great deal of Hydroxy gas to make good gasmilage I am speaking as 40 to 75MPG as being good gas milage, not a mear 10% improvement and Yes you could get 75MPG out of that truck if you realy do it right ...
 I am convinced of that ! Hydrotech on the other forum did get 74mpg on his big truck but he realy modified the fuel delevery system in it too... as he said "you have to lean out the gasoline if your ever going to see ANY improvement!"  and I believe he got it Right!
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many people are useing the O2 sensor mods as well as the MAF inhansors which allow you to adjust the fuel being used... but I have not seen the RAW gains that Hydrotech got by useing these doohickies....and I am a bit skeptical on weather they work or not... that is why I went with Mechanical changes on my truck... after I took the Hydroxy cell off I was supprized to discover that my truck now gets 28mpg all the time with out the Hydroxy unit on there!
with it I should get 40+ MPG....
when I started this the MPG base-line was 22 to 24 MPG
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so I have made good improvements, but I am just starting... wait till I get it going on 100% hydroxy gas and NO gasoline ... on that day I will PARTY !!!!!!
HAHAHHAHAHA
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Bob....

[Rodman]

I got the flooded tero back together with a differant configuration for testing. Put it together with two cells in one package. +nnnnn-nnnnn+. Got a late start but here`s what`s going on. Running with KOH. Started at 13.02 volt 2.55 amp. Measured plate voltage. 2.16, 4.24, 6.34, 8.52, 10.57, 12.73, 10.6, 8.49, 6.38, 4.31, 2.19.
 At 2.62 amps I got .588LPM. 5.24 amp=1.24LPM. 6.28 amp=1.53LPM. Hardly any heat yet.
Pretty late now & I have to go in. I`ll continue conditioning the plates tomorrow and try to get the current up a bit higher. I`ll try to get some pictures & post.