washer AKA "Randy" cell

[Bob]

well I made my own O-rings from 1/4" vinal tubeing cut in 1/16" slices... its crude but it did work
and I had to crush them a very long way....
 I'm guessing but 1/4" I.D. and 1/16".... but you might be able to go just a few thousandths thicker than the washers and be better off.
....
the 1/4" i.d is because of the S.S.Bolt size.... if you use a bigger bolt you'ed need larger diamator O-Rings and bigger holes in the washers , thats all.
....
Bob.......

[H²+O]

Another question BOB.  What type of material should the washer be? cause on that site i can get hard ones that are resisant to acids or i can get softer ones. do i want to be able to squish it together some or would just a little bit of squish (like nothing almost i'm guessing) be enough?
 
steve

[H²+O]

what is the width of the nylon folder would you guess? what is the spacing on those cells?
steve

[Bob]

Steve:
 you need Stainless steel washers...as big in diameter as you can get... (that is 2" Outer.Diameter. in most cases). don't buy normal steel washers as the metal will leach impurities into the electrolyte solution and form a Green GOO... that coats the plates and will eventually stop all Production completely.
  So Stainless steel.... I got mine at 2 places.... Ace Hardware store and Lowes Hardware.
don't forget to buy the stainless steel lag bolts at the same time 1/4x20 threds 4"to 6" long depending on your needs.... AND the Stainless steel NUTS and a few 1/4" stainless steel washers.
....
there are 2 holes in each washer one is 3/8" in O.D. and the other is 1/4"O.D.    you must drill these holes yourself and it takes a good hard drill bit to do it a wood bit won't do nothing but burn up trying to drill it....
 I drilled all my washers at once on the drill press by bolting the stack of washers togather very tightly and then drilling the holes....  However this is tricky because they have to be exactly centered (the holes) or when you flip flop the washers they will not stack evenly.
 lets say you just drilled 2 washers .... you put the bolts through one of them  and then take the next one and flip the washer over so the larger hole is on the other bolt.... oppisit of the washer under it. that is what I mean by flip flopping the washers as you assemble them.
....
now the bottom washer has a 1/4" hole on the left side and the 3/8" hole on the right side in front of you....
 the 1/4" hole side is the contact side it will need a stainless steel shim-stock piece to make constant contact with the washer it goes down against the washer and is screwed on finger tight
.... the other side of the washer needs insulated from the bolt on that side  that is why the larger hole on that side so the O-Ring fits inside the hole and will keep the washer from contacting the bolt. then with the addition of hand made nilon washers that slide over the bolt top and bottom of the washer the washer is now insulated on that side from the bolt....
the next washer is just the opposite in direction, now the large hole is on the left side and the 1/4" hole is on the right.... a piece of shim-stock is threaded down on the right side to make contact with the bolt and the O-Ring goes on the left side with the nylon insulators top and bottom...
....and on it goes for 11 washers... it took me 4 hrs to assemble my first cell and it didn't check out electrically... I had 2 plates exactly the same so I had to disassemble it and do it again, but it went faster because I knew more of what I was doing.... it checked out electrically on the 2nd try
... by checking out electrically with an Ohm meter I mean a continuity test between the bolts... there should be NO continuity and continuity on every other washer throughout the stack on both bolts
this isn't as easy to achieve as it sounds but if your persistent you can do it...
I built 3 cells, the 4th I didn't bother to assemble because I drilled the holes wrong through all 11 washers ! AURGH ! and when I stacked them they were off by 1/8" side to side ... and thats no good!
...
  but of the 3 cells I had to assemble and dissemble all but 1  and that was because I had it built already... <Blush> it took 3 trys before I got the second one built and 2 trys on the 3rd.... but when they all finally checked out electrically I was ecstatic! I had my cells made ! FINALLY! and I went and doctored my fingers where they had been sliced by the shim-stock so many times it took a week to heal up !!!!! !
the shimstock is a very important part... use high quality stainless steel and take your time in making them they can be square or octagon in shape but the center hole needs to be smaller than the 1/4" bolt.... so they thread on to the bolts ... that's very important ! Randy cut his out with a pare of sizzors.... I chopped mine out with tin snips and  made them octagon in shape on 2 of them and square on the 3rd (with no noticeable difference in output i might add)
the hole I drilled into the shim-stock was tight fitting on the bolts... it threaded on but it was tight.... and I am glad I made the hole that small as when I disassembled them I could flatten the shim-stock with a small hammer so I could re use it ! because when you tighten the end nuts you bend the shim-stock and make good contact with the bolt.
I tightened then down good and snug.... you don't need to go real tight  or you will cut through the nylon spacers you use as insulators and short out the washer on both bolts which means disassembly again !
...
Hope that helps.... buy a good High quality drill bit for this drilling and use a center punch !
if you don't have a drill press I recommend you try another type of cell because doing that 11 washers by hand is very hard... (but it can be done!)
...
remember if it smokes its too hot ! use a drilling/cutting oil  to help cool stuff down,
when done drilling  file each washer flat to get the burrs off and then buff it with a wire wheel
... hang on tight and ware a face shield ... and any washer holes in the wall means you screwed UP !!!!  LOL !  ( put a bolt through the washer to help hold it if ya need it)
... remember a grinder or wire wheel can fling stuff faster than a 45cal pistle can shoot ! and you don't want a washer embedded in your chest or neck.... not to mention other parts!
be careful and use your head... listen to that little voice in the back of your head that says Um something ain't right here! ... because its usually NOT !
...
Bob...



....

[H²+O]

Ok Thanks bob!!!!!!!  !!

Another question for ya! why do you 'flip' the washers over rather than turning them 180*?

[Bob]

LOL ! just because I like to be CONTARY !!!!!
....
heheheheheh
... without the holes perfectly centered between the center hole and the outside edge and IN LINE
they will not stack evenly....weather you FLIP them over or Rotate them 180degrees... HAHAHAH
...
thanks for the giggle !
Bob........

[H²+O]

Just placed my order with mcmaster.com, here is what i got......



1 3 Packs 91525A129 Type 316 SS Large-Diameter Flat Washer 1/4" Screw Size, 2" OD, .05"-.08" Thick, Packs of 5 $7.38 $22.14  

2 1 Pack 91850A029 Type 316 Stainless Steel Heavy Hex Nut 1/4"-20 Thread Size, 1/2" Width, 15/64" Height, Packs of 50 $11.42 $11.42  

3 1 Ft. 5769K52 Increased Pull Flexible Magnetic Strip Plain Back, 1/8" Thick, 3" Widthin the morning
$6.05 $6.05  

4 1 Pack 1201T21 MIL-Spec Viton® Fluoroelastomer O-Ring AS568A Dash Number 010, Packs of 50 (Same as 1201T111) $5.73 $5.73

5 5 Ft. 8730K85 Nylon 6/6 Strip .020" Thick, 1/2" Widein the morning
$0.10 $0.50  

6 1 Each 2317K21 Type 316 Stainless Steel Shim Stock Sheet .02" Thick, 8" X 12"in the morning
$18.18 $18.18  

7 1 Pack 93190A552 Type 316 SS Fully Threaded Hex Head Cap Screw 1/4"-20 Thread, 2-1/2" Length, Packs of 10 $10.58 $10.58  

  Merchandise   $74.60

.......... alrity the reason i got the shims and nylon at .02 inches  is because together they = .04 inches or 1/25 inch right between the 1/16 and 1/32 inch mark. and i can always add more.

Plus ordering everything in exact size makes it easyer to know what is the best in the future when we build more!

I'm goin to bed! i'm workin in 5 and a half hours! roofing, (you know how it is....  makes it so a guy doesn't have to go to the gym for a couple days!)

Can't wait to get the stuff!!!!!

steve,,,

BOB (seen you posted whilst i was writing this)

I was just wondering because i thought the washers were a little concave cause they are stamped out..

steve

[Bob]

Your right there Steve... they are slightly concaved, but that is why I took a file to each one and got the burrs off of them and checked for flatness at the same time... out of 40 washers I found 2 that were concaved fairly bad so I didn't even use them....
most were so flat it was scarry !as things progressed I just took the grinder to get the burrs off the holes I drilled with a quick swipe and then slid the file over them a few times ... it was faster to do it that way.
...
 Randy could check your parts list better than I  ...all I can say is it looks ok to me  <GRIN>
I don't know about your nylon though.... because we tried many things and finally settled on the floresent orenge color thicker 2 pocket folders for school supply and made them out of that... mainly because it needs to be very thin and strong and that stuff is that !
normal Nylon will probably crush on you and render it useless... so I would make mine from the school 2 pocket folders from walmart  I bought 5 and I only used 1 in the 4 cells I made I simply cut strips
of the meterial and then used a paper punch to punch out holes spaced about 1.25"appart and then cut out the squares making a square with a hole in its center... I then put them all on a 8"x 1/4" bolt and took them to the wire wheel and ground them all down at once into round washers... I still have about 100 left ...so I'm getting low ! HAHAHAHAHHA
I used one OVER the shim-stock and 2 over the O-ring side on each level to make it set level
the shim-stock is critical to cut all on the same side so the rough edge goes down against the washer
and no cutting burs face up to cut through the nylon
... the Hole for the shim-stock I got by using my slide calipers on the space between the threds on the bolt to get the min diam...and then picked the next size smaller... drill bit... that proved to be too tight so I re drilled them to the same size and they fit real good.
....
Roofing... thats actually a satisifying job...but in the heat it can Kill you ! Stay COOL.... I soaked myself with the water hose and the Boss had the Nerve to ask me "why I was wet" and I said "you climb up there in the heat and you will be drenching yourself down too".... ! I didn't work very long for him.... can't amagon why ! LOL
...so Now I only do my OWN roofs...and that sutes me just fine ! LOL

...
Bob......

[H²+O]

You know it's satisfying! i've been doing it for my dad for 11 years now (yes the math is right when it says i started when i was 9! LOL). once you get your rithem there's nothing can stop you, (excep mayby falling off the roof!!!!!!!! haven't done it yet myself but seen it happen in my time)

Thanks BOB

steve.

[H²+O]

The area of a "randy cell". How do i corectly figure out the area of the randy cell? would it be= 2" washer with 1/4" hole in middle.. area of a 2" circle = 3.14159in². then subtract the 1/4th(.19635in²)center hole and the 1/4th(.19635in²) drilled hole and the 3/8th(.44179in²)drilled hole muptiplyed by 13 plates then muptiplyed by 2 sides ===========  59.9846in²

is that how you do it? or do you have to figure both drilled holes at 3/8in because of the nylon washers?

o and i didn't calculate the edge so.... (LOL)

steve

[Bob]

Well sort'a ... you got the right idea there...
except that the hole in the center of the washers is 1/2"
and that I only used one side of the washer... so you'ed have to recalculate ALL my findings if your useing them as a refrence.
...
I also did not calculate in the 1/4" hole or the 3/8" hole.... this was just a quick guestimate on the area for AMPS PER AREA purposes and yes its not super accurate !
...  BUT it is enough to tell you that Most cells do not have anywhere near the amps Per square inch that the Randy cell has.... simply because it is a small cell.... However because of its AMPS PER SQUARE INCH Figures, it out preforms many cells twice its size !
....
Most people want a big cell and that means big production... but this is not the case with Hydroxy gas Production....  Your AMPERAGE is what makes the Production.... Not the cell Plate area
... although you can argue that point and be correct too, the fact remains that without the POWER the cell will not produce well... weather it has 5000 square inches of plate area or 50 it all comes down to AMPS equal OUTPUT..... the 5000 sqr in cell can produce more than the 50sqr in cell....obviously
because if you put 500 amps into a 50sqr in cell it will glow red hot and melt the insulators...it can't handle that kind of power , but the 5000sqr in one can ! so it will produce more.
....
so this continues... the more AMPS you use the more heat is produced...more work is being done.
if you increase plate area on a cell that produces 2LPM at 20 amps the output will usually drop
because 2LPM at 20amps is Peek production.... if you reduce plate area the production will drop also...   but when You change the AMPERAGE ... something changes ! .... say you put 60 amps into that same cell.... you will get more than 2LPM  probably close to 5LPM.... but if you add plate area NOW the LPM will go up quickly !
... doing this  will alow you to "TUNE the cell" for the best possable output....
 I did this with the Randy Cell to double check Randys findings and he was Spot on at 11 washers for 20~25 amps.... but if you want more output you need to increase BOTH amps and plates or you will run into a Heat problem because your Amps per square inch becomes too high.
....
its a ballanceing act.... too many plates and not enough amps  equals poor output, too much amperage not enough plates equils less that Optimum output...and lots of heat( not nessarially Poor output)
...
for this reason we say that 1LPM at 10 amps is good production.... the bigger you make the cell and more amps you use, the harder it is to maintain that ratio....
 ....
Bob....