washer AKA "Randy" cell

[randy]

I've built several different cells, some worked well, not so with others, expense became a big consideration in my designs, cheaper is better if it might not work right? I experimented with switch plates and flat plate made from stainless door push plates from Lowe's, in one of my experiments I discovered closer spacing had better output with less electrolyte "lower PH level" after playing with different sizes, thicknesses and configurations I had an Idea to try stainless fender washers, cheap, easy to find, and small, so here's what I came up with, I called it a washer cell but Bob named it the randy cell.

these little puppies have great output for such a small package.

[Bob]

Indeed they do have a good output ..dispite their very small size
 I have seen 2LPM from 1 cell at 20 to 22 amps and My cells are noticeably lower output than Randys cells he gets something like 2.5LPM per 20amps per cell.
...
However both of us are diligently working on getting that output in a "GROUP of cells"
Randy has 6 such cells at the moment on his truck...
and I have 3 cells on my truck...
However you'ed think that 6x2.5LPM would equil 15LPM for Randys truck, but thats not the case
I realise that is what we have been told all along , all you have to do is hook them in series and you double the output... but... that is Not true
...
On my cell 3 in series I got about 1.5LPM output at 30 amps from all 3cells
so I switched recently to have them wired in Parallel and the output seams to have improved
quite a bit but its still not the 6LPM I should be getting simply because I am not giveing it the amps it needs to perform that well...
AMPS make the diference..without the amprage it simply will not produce !
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Randy...
 I came home with #50- 2" s.s. fender washers from Ace hardware they cost .60c each but the guy gave them to me for half the box price $23 bucks I think it was.... a realy good deal actually !
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so You know what I'll be makeing in my slack time !
...MORE RANDY CELLS !!!!!
hehehehehe
...
I'll stack all 11 washers and drill out the 3/8" hole and 1/4" hole at the same time
I have a large 1/2" bolt that goes through the center of the 11 washer stack and a nut that tightens down on them all to hold them fast ...it works great !
lots of cutting oil ( auto-trans fluid/30wt mix) is needed though to keep the drill bit from burning... then each plate needs to be de-burred...
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sure makes that part go fast and accurate too.
...
Bob......

[randy]

Cool, I've got a cheapo drill press & don't trust it do drill more then 2, a little lateral slack in the thing, them things wired parallel will definitely kick out some serious gas, but heat's gonna be a problem, I've thought of running an ac cooler but that seems like more work then it's worth, KOH seemed to mess up my test cell, so did the denatured alcohol, guess I'll keep experimenting.
Randy

[numberonekiwi]

Hi I am trying to understand the concept with the Randy cell and on close inspection I see from working top to bottom the first +/- plates close together then a larger space then close together again would this then mean that there is only current conducting in these parts of the cell and not the parts where the shim washers are ? if this is the case is the last + plate required ? I do know that electricity is generally lazy and takes the path of less resistance but I also know from reading forums that we are breaking rules of physics all the time.

[janmarsh]

Randy,  
Based on your kool-aid results,  I,ve purchased some amorphous ( thats dry crystal seemingly ) Citric acid  99.5 purity from a chemical firm.    Are you still getting good results with your lemonade ?

[randy]

yeah it was working great until I added denatured alcohol for antifreeze, but it worked great for 1000s of miles until I did that, no reduction of output before the alcohol.

[randy]

numberonekiwi; the washers I get are stamped out, this causes them to be slightly cupped on the underside, when assempled correctly the spacing comes out very even.

[Bob]

NumberoneKiwi:
    Well the drawing is somewhat deciptive in that regard, just think of it as each plate as close to each other as every other one is...all spaced the same.... in reality that is how it turns out because when you tighten down the nuts on the end you squish it down nice and tight
and it measures something like 1/64" or so when done... a very close fit...
its an arangement like this +-+-+-+-+-+ 11 plates in series (at least that is the way we used to describe it)   but sense every negitive plate is connected to the negitive lead outside the container and every positive plate is connected to the positive lead outside the container it is actually in Parallel....electrically speaking.
every plate operates in this design the back side of the end plates doesn't do much ofcorse
but they are positive so the next plate a negitive plate ( on eather end) is surrounded by a positive plate above and below it... makeing the negitive plate operate to its fullest potential. each negitive plate in the stack of 11 washers is the same  and connected electrically to the same bolt... and INSULATED from the other bolt... they cannot make contact in any way...
likewize the positive plates are very much the same but attached to the other bolt and insulated from the negitive bolt...
so you have a big washer with 2 smaller holes in it the small hole is to the right and the bigger hole is to the left...  sense this is the first plate on the stack it is destined to be a positive plate...  a shim stock nut thingie, is put down over the right side small hole and then an insulator....
on the left side there is a insulator under and over the 3/8"hole and a O-ring in the hole
the idea here is to insulate the plate from touching the bolt at all !
the second plate , this one is a negitive plate and it goes on with the small 1/4" hole to the left side over the side of the O-ring on the previous plate.... a shimstock nut thing is put down on it and an insulator... on the 3/8" hole now on the right side a o-ring is added and an insulator so this plate is insulated from the positive side....
the next plate is a positive plate so the small hole goes n the right side ....
and on it goes till all 11 washers are on there.... you then top it off with a extra insulator and a washer, or a insulator of some sort on the o-ring side and washer and a nut.
 and a washer and Nut on the 1/4" hole side... ( no insulator needed on that side)
... you then tighten the nuts down about 1 turn at a time on each side till they are both good and snug... but not real tight.... too tight and you will cut through the nilon washers so snug enough to bring all the plates to the same spaceing  and thats that !
test the cell with a VTOM meter and check for continuity between the posts/bolts if there is any continuity you have to take it appart and fix it !
if no continuity then check each plate that is connected to that bolt all should have continuity that are attached to it .... and NOT the insulated ones....
same for the other side...
if you get it past those 3 tests its time to toss it in the water and make bubbles cuz its done !
 this small cell will put out 2LPM at 20 amps if you did every thing right... Randy has achieved as much as 2.7LPM for 20 amps if I remember right ( not positive on that)
but even I have achieved 2LPM at 20 amps !  so if you get that kind of output you got a goodern'


its mainly flipping the washers 'big hole to the right , big hole to the left all the way through the stack... they are not all lined up the same way from the start.their flip-flopped...every other washer is oriented in the same manor as the washer imediately under the one in question.
...
hope that explains it
its just useing 2 bolts to make a +-+-+- type connection to all the plates and to do that you have to flip the plates back and forth is all.
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Randy,
If the denatured alcohol didn't work for you what have you found if anything that does the job? Did the denatured alcohol just cut down on LPM or did it damage the cell?

I got Denso 'Universal' 02 Sensors to install in my Toyota 4x4 2.4RE and was wondering if you knew the wire pin out on the vehicle side. I have 2 black 1 white and 1 blue wire. I'm thinking I can use  simple trailer hitch connectors for 4 wire if I can't find the Toyota replacements. Any advise? 

Thanks,
Tink

[randy]

I don't even have a clue, sorry, all I've done with them is shield them from the exhaust stream, probably look up the product manufacturer of the sensor for the best info.

[candyman55]

Tink,
On my toyota I have 2 O2 sensors ahead of the cats. each has 4 wires -- on the driver side the wire out is green and on the passenger side the wire out is blue. The one that your are looking for is probably the blue one -- the 2 black are probably heater wires and the white one is ground. Hope this helps

[Tink]

Randy,
They don't know but are trying to find out. The Toyota shop manual doesn't say. I'm hoping once I get back to normal operation and get the check engine lite to stay off then I can use the sleeves again to hopefully get out of the 'open loop' thing.

Candyman55,
That confirms my suspissions. Mine are before and aft the CAT. Single exhaust, Calif truck. Both have same wire colors.

Thanks
Tink

[geezer]

Just a thought but when i need to know about wireing i google auto zone and you can pull up wireing diagrams on most anything.   i just do what the littel voices tell me!

[Ed]

Bob, Randy,

Do you think it would make a difference if each cell was in it own bath and then hooked up rather than 3 cells sharing a bath as in Randy's setup? Maybe that is why the output drops when you go from one cell to 3.