Just saying Hello

[rexmannb]

Hi everyone,
I have been building the "wet cells" trying different gauges of S/S and spacing. I am becoming very interested in trying the "Dry Cell" after reading different reviews and comments. Admittedly I have been missing my cells full potential by not using a PWM. I have a lot to learn also about EFIE O2 sensor manipulation. Any and all positive comments are welcome. I just want to help in this (I believe to be) great help to an ever growing energy concern. P.S. this is a very well built forum.

[Bob]

thanks for the flowers Rex !
and welcome to the forum.
Feral and I try to stay on top of this forum at all times... we check it constantly
and will intertain any sujestions to make it better <GRIN>
...
I too have mainly wet cell experience and am planning a BIG dry cell...
I am hopeing to make a 5 or 7 plate 12"x12" dry cell with parallel wireing to the plates
in the hopes that a larger output can be obtained !
I plan to run allot of amps into it and have a recurculateing tank for the electrolyte
that will have cooling fins on the tank to keep the temp down....
dunno if it will work or not but I sure hope so !
....
Bob.......

[Painless]

If you are looking to get into dry cells, and I thoroughly recommend them, I have an instructional video I made reference building my entry level dry cell design using parts from Lowes.  This uses the same switch plate covers as the smacks design, but can be adapted to whatever suits your purpose.  I'm currently using some proper flat plates instead of the switch plate covers.

My website, http://www.hhoknowhow.info/ has an article with a link to the video.  The site is very sparse at the moment as I've just started building it, but am hoping to make it a good resource for everyone to learn from and contribute to.

Some points about dry cell efficiency you will want to keep in mind:

1) Neutrals are the key!  I currently favour a 5 or 6 neutral setup for automobile voltage.  A 5.4 MMW is obtainable with this setup in my Lowes design.  Temperature will stabilise with the correct number of neutrals.

2) Lowering the flow rate actually improves efficiency.  I don't use a pump on my cells and place the reservoir so that the top level of the reservoir is only slightly higher than the electrolyte level in the cell.  This raised my MMW by 0.5.

3) I recommend a 0.40" gasket thickness, anything bigger will need a strong electrolyte to produce and will not be as efficient.  I use the PVC shower pan liner from Lowes for my gaskets.

4) I recommend KOH for electrolyte, if you can, use a full strength solution and employ a PWM to keep the amps where you need them.  This increased my MMW by 1.0.

Best of luck to you!  I hope to help out where I can.

Russ.

[rexmannb]

Thanks Painless,
I am not sure what "MMW" refers to, can you explain? You have given me some great direction. I was going to use a -NNNN+NNNN- configuration and you recomend 5-6 N's instead. What do you consider a full strength KOH solution? I am tired of moderate start up production to prevent overheating so I have just recently got a PWM to add to my system.

[Painless]

MMW is a measurment of efficiency, it stands for 'Millilitres per Minute per Watt', the higher the number the more efficient the cell:

Let's say that we have a cell which is running at 12 volts and consuming 20 amps of current while producing 1 liter per minute of HHO (1,000 milliliters).

To find the watts we take 12 (volts) and times it by 20 (amps) giving 240 watts used.

We then take the 1,000 (milliliters of HHO) and divide it by the 240 (watts), this tells us that for each watt of power we are producing 4.16 milliliters of HHO.  Hence, our MMW is 4.16.

You should keep in mind that a cell running at a high temperature will show misleadingly high LPM's and hence the same misleadingly high MMW as higher temp gas occupies a larger volume.  Also, if the electrolyte is hot enough, water vapor will also be present inflating the LPM.

A full strength KOH solution is 28% KOH (by volume) to 72% water.

Hope this helps!

Russ.

[rexmannb]

Thanks for clearing up the measurement. As for the KOH, please tell me that you do not mean 1 quart of Koh to a gallon of water. Could you please give me an example measurement on KOH at 28%?
Also how is the 1/4" plastic working for you (from Lowes)?

[Painless]

Thanks for clearing up the measurement. As for the KOH, please tell me that you do not mean 1 quart of Koh to a gallon of water. Could you please give me an example measurement on KOH at 28%?
Also how is the 1/4" plastic working for you (from Lowes)?

Yes, you are talking about roughly a quart to a gallon for maximum strength.  Naturally, you don't need to go that far unless you want super-duper efficiency.

The 1/4" hose if working great, I've had my previous cells over 3 LPM with it and not had any throughput issues.

Russ.

[Bob]

I think they usually go by weight and that sounds like a 75/25 ratio to me ( water to KOH)
but use "Distilled and DE-Minerilized water" when you make it !
...
Myself , if I was making it as a real strong soulution for use with a PWM I think I'ed pre mix it in a bucket, water first and slowly add about 1lb to a single gallon
that might not be strong enough to reach saturation but it would be fairly close...and not use up all my KOH in one shot !
( thats probly about 4 cups of the flakes, guessing here)
it doesn't have to be an exact science... just as long as the resistance is very low in the soulution ...test it with your VTOM and see when you first start, test the water, add KOH, test the water, add more, test the water... if there is no change from the last test stop adding KOH because your at the point of saturation already...
I think if you use this method you will find that a 25% or 30% mix by weight is a waste of KOH as it is way past the point of saturation of the water.
...I say this because at 24 to 30 teaspoons of KOH in my 1 gal container I reached a point where adding more did not change the Amperage at all... which told me I reached saturation on much less than many others have said to mix the KOH at ....
... it might save you some KOH and might not... test it and see !<GRIN>
...
Bob........
 

[Manta]

You can use painless's principle and keep the litre per minute if you use (LPM/Watts)* 1000.


Manta

[Painless]

28% has been quoted as the maximum concentration of KOH that water will absorb, but I know what you mean, Bob.  I've also been obviously at less than that and not seen any increase in production.  Plate gap comes into play here as well.  I'm currently using a 0.040" gap but want to go closer.

I can also tell you that maximum concentration KOH or NaOH is pretty nasty stuff.  I had a maximum strength solution in my system and was emptying it, the reservoir slipped and I poured about a pint of the stuff all over both my hands and forearms, some also splashed up and hit my lips!

I had nasty red burn marks all over my arms for about two weeks and the inside of my lips hurt like a bugger!!!  I couldn't even eat without wincing every time something touched my lips.

My wife made me promise to wear gloves from now on when I'm near electrolyte, her face went white when she saw the mess!

Be careful out there!

Russ.

[Bob]

Yeouch !
Thanks fer the warning !
... I drained my cell onto the ground one time and watched it start bubbleing on the rocks and pine needles.......  that Kind'a told me not to get it on me ! HEHEHEHHE
... so I've been real carefull about that....
...
thats what worries me about Scratches setup with the cells in the back of the truck...
if he springs a leak it may eat away half the bed of his truck before he is even aware of the leak !
.....
Bob....

[scratch1676]

I had a slow leak from one cell, leaked for about two weeks.  I am going to pull back my rubber mat and take a pic and post it here.  I havent even looked to see what happened with it.  Most of the time I just take the water hose and dilute any spills I get when I am working on the unit.  That stuff will make you go and wash your hands off pretty quick.

[rexmannb]

Thanks Guys,
This is the kind of input that I was hoping for. I am going to try a dry cell using my wet cell plate size so that if it works, I can convert some of my older wet cells over. Painless, your website is awesome, thanks.

[Painless]

You're more than welcome!

Thanks for the kind words on my website, it's actually only a week or two old and doesn't have a huge amount of info at the moment, but I'm hoping to remedy that over the coming weeks.

Best of luck with your experiments!

Russ.

[Bob]

Hay Painless ! whats your website address again? I must have missed it <GRIN>
never hurts to post it again anyway !
heheheheh
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

Rexmannb:
..
the only real advantage over wet cell that Dry cells have is the no container needed thing...
however you LOOSE precious plate area in a dry cell due to the gaskets between the plates
and that is a major concern if you are going for High output...
a wet cell is superior in many ways...  all of the plate is being used on every plate
so when useing something like the small SS "Wall switch plate covers" from Lowes hardware
your probably much better off immersing them in the liquid instead of making them into a dry cell ! 
gas can escape better in a wet cell than in a dry cell and  i have yet to see a square dry cell positioned correctly so that the gas all escapes out the same hole  they should be tilted so the hole is at the top not Horizontal so the gas fills the top of the cell
and render even more of the plate area dry and useless ! even Scratches Huge cells are like that... but in his case he has enough plate area to make up for the 1/2" loss from each plate ! not all of them out there do !
Dry cells are indeed good working Hydroxy generators but if your working with smaller plates you'ed be better served to make a container for them, this allows you to add a recirculation system if needed and you can even incorporate a Explosive Pressure relief device to make it safer ! ( a hole with a plate and gasket with a spring holding it down!)
Dry cells can be made to operate very effeciently However it usually takes some tinkering to get that to happen, where a wet cell is allready totally wet and bubbleing away all you have to do is capture the gas...
...
there is good points and bad points to both types, I think myself that the wet cell is far more superior in performance, at least until you get into 8"x8" plate size and above
from that size up, the container to put it in becomes more of a hassel than all the
plates and their hookup...<GRIN>
....
so it winds up being personal preference in the long run !
 
Personally I think a 12"x12" wetcell would Kick A-- but that takes allot of plexyglass to make a container for it !
...hehehehehe
Bob.......

[Painless]

Bob,

My website is http://www.hhoknowhow.info/.

Please also bare in mind that dry cells are much more efficient than wet, you do not have the issues of current leakage that you do with a wet cell.  I've also found that whilst surface area is indeed important, you are better off with many smaller plates than less larger ones.

Russ.

[Bob]

Painless:
INteresting ! Yes there is a ineffeciency in current leakage but I have found that is is Nonimal in my cells.... I suppose it gets to be a larger problem when plate spaceing is wider than 1/16" but for my cells I havn't really had a problem with "current leakage"
personally I think "current leakage" is over raited! heheheheheheh
...
interesting that you say a bunch of small plates is preferable than few large ones...
On my first cell I made what I call my Big cell it had 24 plates of normal steel plates
and spaced at almost 1/4" each... it was a wet cell and connected in parallel so the plates were wired +-+-+- through the stack of 24 plates... the output was something like 1/8 LPM
or so ....very disipointing to say the least <GRIN> at 20 amps or so...
I got the bright idea of removeing plates and trying it each step of the way and find out how many plates made the best output... and the more plates I took off the better output I got, even though I had to re set the electrolyte each time... the output cept climbing till I reached 8 plates (at 12plates I took off 4) there my output plunged to about 1/2LPM from over 1.25LPM so I added 2 plates and tested again and got 1.5LPM and stopped there
...in effect I tuned the cell to the available power I had at the time (20 amps)
More plates gave me less output ! fewer plates gave me less output ,so I was at the optimum plate area for the cell at that power.... I then changed the power to 30 amps and although the LPM went up it was no longer "tuned to that power" so I added 2 more plates and gained a bit more LPM  ...about then is when My charger died , battery went to hell and I had to stop the testing...
 but it was enough for me to draw the conclusion that for every amp setting there is an Optimum amount of plate area... and number of plates realy doesn't come into it at all it is plate area alone.... at least I think so... I couldn't finish my tests so I couldn't take it to its final conclusion.
sense it takes 3 or 4 small plates to make the same area as a large plate then its easy to asume that the number of plates is the key... but I don't think that is the case ..
I believe its plate Area per amp that is critical to a good working cell... not the number of plates or size of them.
(FWIW)
Bob........

[Painless]

I've also found that whilst surface area is indeed important, you are better off with many smaller plates than less larger ones.

I didn't explain this point very well.  Surface area is indeed important, as you pointed out.  My point is that I have found, for example, 20 3"x3" plates to be more efficient than 10 6"x3".  This is aside from considering voltage per plate in each serial set connected in parallel to each other, that is also important and must be 'tuned' to your power goals.

Russ.

[Bob]

Yah but that is the important part... you NEED to consider the voltage to each plate and the amperage per square inch if your going to realy fine tune the cell to the available power !
...
your saying that 20 plates of the same airea as 5 plates is better.... and I realy havn't seen any evedence of that in my experiments... its possable no doubt because most of my cells have 11 plates or more... my 20 and 24 plate cells didn;t work fer crud !
HAHAHAHHAA
Bob........

[rexmannb]

Hey guys,
I love this input. I was impressed with some reports that I read on the dry cells, claiming 3 LPM @ 20 amps. My wet cells have never come close to that. I followed the logic of the current flow with the dry cell v/s the wet cell. I also could never run my spacing less than 1/8" due to the plates "burning" disintegrating and creating a muddy mess. Plus it did not seem to increase my output. I built a wet cell w/ 7 plates (304 s/s) spaced @ 1/4" and it gave me 275 MLPM and seemed to keep the water cleaner. I have not yet tried the higher concentration of KOH w/ the PWM, but I am getting ready to try.
Bob: what spacing do you work with on your wet cells? Russ: How do your plates hold up spaced @ 1/25" ? I have a lot of people in my area looking for me to come up with some answers and the more answers I find the more questions come into play. It is madness Anyway guys, I do appreciate your ideas and experience. I believe we will get this to work and won't that get the Nye Sayers attention.

[Painless]

My plates hold up fine with the 0.040" spacing, I'd go closer if I had the means. The key is voltage drop per cell, a closer cell gap has less resistance between the plates therefore the voltage is higher causing the extra heat and muddiness. You can remedy this by adding more neutrals to drop the voltage further.

With the correct balance of gap, neutrals and total surface area you will see an increase in efficiency.

[Bob]

My plate gap is 0.010" to 0.015" because they are the clasic "Randy Cells" MK I
I also have a Smack booster that still works at last check and a cell of my own design that has about 1- 1/4" washer thickness plate spacing or about 1/16"+~-
...
I've never had plate problems other than garbage forming on them ( rust on some of the shims I used, and down right dirty water and GOO... but all the plates held up , even the normal steel ones did and I expected them to rust away and they are still in fairly good shape !
but my plates are thick too... the thinnest are the smack boosters wall switch plate covers
but they are in good shape besides what the goo did to them !( need to acid clean it!)
...
...
Hope that helps
Bob......