Just saying Hello

[rexmannb]

Hi everyone,
I have been building the "wet cells" trying different gauges of S/S and spacing. I am becoming very interested in trying the "Dry Cell" after reading different reviews and comments. Admittedly I have been missing my cells full potential by not using a PWM. I have a lot to learn also about EFIE O2 sensor manipulation. Any and all positive comments are welcome. I just want to help in this (I believe to be) great help to an ever growing energy concern. P.S. this is a very well built forum.

[Bob]

thanks for the flowers Rex !
and welcome to the forum.
Feral and I try to stay on top of this forum at all times... we check it constantly
and will intertain any sujestions to make it better <GRIN>
...
I too have mainly wet cell experience and am planning a BIG dry cell...
I am hopeing to make a 5 or 7 plate 12"x12" dry cell with parallel wireing to the plates
in the hopes that a larger output can be obtained !
I plan to run allot of amps into it and have a recurculateing tank for the electrolyte
that will have cooling fins on the tank to keep the temp down....
dunno if it will work or not but I sure hope so !
....
Bob.......

[Painless]

If you are looking to get into dry cells, and I thoroughly recommend them, I have an instructional video I made reference building my entry level dry cell design using parts from Lowes.  This uses the same switch plate covers as the smacks design, but can be adapted to whatever suits your purpose.  I'm currently using some proper flat plates instead of the switch plate covers.

My website, http://www.hhoknowhow.info/ has an article with a link to the video.  The site is very sparse at the moment as I've just started building it, but am hoping to make it a good resource for everyone to learn from and contribute to.

Some points about dry cell efficiency you will want to keep in mind:

1) Neutrals are the key!  I currently favour a 5 or 6 neutral setup for automobile voltage.  A 5.4 MMW is obtainable with this setup in my Lowes design.  Temperature will stabilise with the correct number of neutrals.

2) Lowering the flow rate actually improves efficiency.  I don't use a pump on my cells and place the reservoir so that the top level of the reservoir is only slightly higher than the electrolyte level in the cell.  This raised my MMW by 0.5.

3) I recommend a 0.40" gasket thickness, anything bigger will need a strong electrolyte to produce and will not be as efficient.  I use the PVC shower pan liner from Lowes for my gaskets.

4) I recommend KOH for electrolyte, if you can, use a full strength solution and employ a PWM to keep the amps where you need them.  This increased my MMW by 1.0.

Best of luck to you!  I hope to help out where I can.

Russ.

[rexmannb]

Thanks Painless,
I am not sure what "MMW" refers to, can you explain? You have given me some great direction. I was going to use a -NNNN+NNNN- configuration and you recomend 5-6 N's instead. What do you consider a full strength KOH solution? I am tired of moderate start up production to prevent overheating so I have just recently got a PWM to add to my system.

[Painless]

MMW is a measurment of efficiency, it stands for 'Millilitres per Minute per Watt', the higher the number the more efficient the cell:

Let's say that we have a cell which is running at 12 volts and consuming 20 amps of current while producing 1 liter per minute of HHO (1,000 milliliters).

To find the watts we take 12 (volts) and times it by 20 (amps) giving 240 watts used.

We then take the 1,000 (milliliters of HHO) and divide it by the 240 (watts), this tells us that for each watt of power we are producing 4.16 milliliters of HHO.  Hence, our MMW is 4.16.

You should keep in mind that a cell running at a high temperature will show misleadingly high LPM's and hence the same misleadingly high MMW as higher temp gas occupies a larger volume.  Also, if the electrolyte is hot enough, water vapor will also be present inflating the LPM.

A full strength KOH solution is 28% KOH (by volume) to 72% water.

Hope this helps!

Russ.

[rexmannb]

Thanks for clearing up the measurement. As for the KOH, please tell me that you do not mean 1 quart of Koh to a gallon of water. Could you please give me an example measurement on KOH at 28%?
Also how is the 1/4" plastic working for you (from Lowes)?

[Painless]

Thanks for clearing up the measurement. As for the KOH, please tell me that you do not mean 1 quart of Koh to a gallon of water. Could you please give me an example measurement on KOH at 28%?
Also how is the 1/4" plastic working for you (from Lowes)?

Yes, you are talking about roughly a quart to a gallon for maximum strength.  Naturally, you don't need to go that far unless you want super-duper efficiency.

The 1/4" hose if working great, I've had my previous cells over 3 LPM with it and not had any throughput issues.

Russ.

[Bob]

I think they usually go by weight and that sounds like a 75/25 ratio to me ( water to KOH)
but use "Distilled and DE-Minerilized water" when you make it !
...
Myself , if I was making it as a real strong soulution for use with a PWM I think I'ed pre mix it in a bucket, water first and slowly add about 1lb to a single gallon
that might not be strong enough to reach saturation but it would be fairly close...and not use up all my KOH in one shot !
( thats probly about 4 cups of the flakes, guessing here)
it doesn't have to be an exact science... just as long as the resistance is very low in the soulution ...test it with your VTOM and see when you first start, test the water, add KOH, test the water, add more, test the water... if there is no change from the last test stop adding KOH because your at the point of saturation already...
I think if you use this method you will find that a 25% or 30% mix by weight is a waste of KOH as it is way past the point of saturation of the water.
...I say this because at 24 to 30 teaspoons of KOH in my 1 gal container I reached a point where adding more did not change the Amperage at all... which told me I reached saturation on much less than many others have said to mix the KOH at ....
... it might save you some KOH and might not... test it and see !<GRIN>
...
Bob........
 

[Manta]

You can use painless's principle and keep the litre per minute if you use (LPM/Watts)* 1000.


Manta

[Painless]

28% has been quoted as the maximum concentration of KOH that water will absorb, but I know what you mean, Bob.  I've also been obviously at less than that and not seen any increase in production.  Plate gap comes into play here as well.  I'm currently using a 0.040" gap but want to go closer.

I can also tell you that maximum concentration KOH or NaOH is pretty nasty stuff.  I had a maximum strength solution in my system and was emptying it, the reservoir slipped and I poured about a pint of the stuff all over both my hands and forearms, some also splashed up and hit my lips!

I had nasty red burn marks all over my arms for about two weeks and the inside of my lips hurt like a bugger!!!  I couldn't even eat without wincing every time something touched my lips.

My wife made me promise to wear gloves from now on when I'm near electrolyte, her face went white when she saw the mess!

Be careful out there!

Russ.

[Bob]

Yeouch !
Thanks fer the warning !
... I drained my cell onto the ground one time and watched it start bubbleing on the rocks and pine needles.......  that Kind'a told me not to get it on me ! HEHEHEHHE
... so I've been real carefull about that....
...
thats what worries me about Scratches setup with the cells in the back of the truck...
if he springs a leak it may eat away half the bed of his truck before he is even aware of the leak !
.....
Bob....

[scratch1676]

I had a slow leak from one cell, leaked for about two weeks.  I am going to pull back my rubber mat and take a pic and post it here.  I havent even looked to see what happened with it.  Most of the time I just take the water hose and dilute any spills I get when I am working on the unit.  That stuff will make you go and wash your hands off pretty quick.

[rexmannb]

Thanks Guys,
This is the kind of input that I was hoping for. I am going to try a dry cell using my wet cell plate size so that if it works, I can convert some of my older wet cells over. Painless, your website is awesome, thanks.

[Painless]

You're more than welcome!

Thanks for the kind words on my website, it's actually only a week or two old and doesn't have a huge amount of info at the moment, but I'm hoping to remedy that over the coming weeks.

Best of luck with your experiments!

Russ.

[Bob]

Hay Painless ! whats your website address again? I must have missed it <GRIN>
never hurts to post it again anyway !
heheheheh
...
Bob.......