Transformers

[scratch1676]

that's what keeps me thinking about this stuff all the time and not getting my work done around my place.  Things just dont work to theories or logic with this stuff.  I will keep trying tho. 

[Manta]

Bob,

Going back to the ac thing.  Here is a thought,  BUT it is quite dangerous. Usual warnings about personal responseability apply.

The first stage of a computer power supply works by directly rectifying the ac mains input. So,  in the USA you would have a 110 volt dc supply with a roughly square wave output. This comes before the high frequency switching stage, AND BEFORE ANY ISOLATION FROM THE MAINS (second warning).

Maybe there is scope for experiment here.

Live long and prosper (third and last warning)

Manta

[Bob]

Boy I agree with that Manta ... it just don't seam right to have to use more and more current
to get more Output... but it is very logical ,it just seams wrong, like taking a hammer to fix a watch.... ...
 I mean 200 amps to make 20LPM is a 10 to 1 ratio 10amps to 1LPM and that just seams super high.... but in reality it is taking us far more than that, more like 20:1
... My gutt tells me that it needent be that high but my brain says your lucky it ain't more!
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
....
and I'll be hanged if I can figure out why I feel that way.... it just like the airfoil  on a airplane a certain size lifts a certain amount and that too seams way too big !
maybe its because we realy don't understand how very very small AIR realy is ....
heheheh
I dunno ... something should "click" one of these days !
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Bob,
I agree that it is logical. More amps means more current,  but the proportions don't seem right.  If, say, 10 amp gives you 1 litre per minute then 50 amp should give you 5 litre per minute.  But it doesn't seem to work that way. More magic needed.

Manta

[Bob]

thats true ...
10amps=1LPM and 50amps usually means about 4LPM at the most...
but I think that is because allot of the amperage is going in to make heat in the higher amps settings... however this doesn't have to be this way if we reduce the resistance in the water to almost nothing... then your 10amps=1LPM should be 50 amps=5LPM ...but of corse there is no guarantee that it will work that way.
...
what gets me is why the 10:1 ratio... 10 amps is allot of power and I wouldn't think it should take that much to rip water apart ,but I guess we are ripping Molecules apart and fighting the small Nuke??  force that holds elements together ! and that is a very strong force. even though its labeled as a Small Nuke force, it ain't very small at all !
I guess we should be thankful we don't have to rip atoms apart ! HAHAHAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[Painless]

Bob,

Shoot me with your .50 cal if I missed something (but give me a 10 second head start first!), but if you're just looking to get the usual 2v per cell in a 101 plate setup, why not just wire up the correct number of series sets in parallel?

For example:

+12v  ----- +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           
.... and so on?  This would allow you to use a 12 volt power source, amp draw would be the only issue but you will have that problem at any voltage.

Russ.

[Bob]

Painless:
 I don't think your missing a thing, that should work fine !
the problem is all the seperate hookups <GRIN>
...
My Randy cells are like this...
 
  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

 I have the ability on the outside of the container to attach the cells anyway I choose
as the bolts that the plates attach to are the electrical connection and mounting studs all in one.
...
if i connect these 3 cells in series they recieve  aprox 4vdc each  and sense they all are in the same electrolyte are subject to the same current draw of 30 amps
but the resulting output is extreamily low, on the order of 1.75LPM to 2LPM is all
barely equil to 1 cell by itself... and I am trying to get 6LPM out of the setup
....
 the only way I can see of getting that Output is to feed it with 60amps, and because of the saturation point  of the water being close to around a 40amp draw that becomes almost impossable.
...
I tried hooking each cell in Parallel instead of series and the heat output trippled
but so did the output... I think I was getting very close to the 6LPM on a mear 30amps
but can't be positive... and within 30 min the heat was too high to continue testing
( on the verge of boiling)
... so My conclusion is a Parallel hookup but with a cooling system attached to curculate the hot electrolyte and cool the cell unit down.
this should give me MAX output what ever amperage I use... however in the Parallel hookup the Amperage is extreamily hard to get very high, it took allot of KOH just to get it to 20 amps and didn't want to draw any more than that....

Reason tells me that if I have 1 cell that puts out 2LPM at 20 amps  I should be able to get 6LPM out of 3 cells of the same type , However this is harder than it sounds!
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

extremely high voltage means you dont need that many amps.  when I was in my twenties I was hooking up a 200 amp meter loop for a mobile home and the wire required was a 4/O-/4/0-2/0 bundle ( I think ).  I ask the power company when they came out hey man why do you make me use this huge wire and you aint got nothin but some number 4  running over here to the pole.  That was my first electrical lesson.  Transformers on the poles step down the voltage from 12,500 volts to 120 volts.  So when I see a hydroxy cell on the internet claiming 30 lpm and I see the wire size looking like #8 or #6  I know they have to be stepping up the voltage.  The problem I see with most of these high output units is they demo them on the bench and they are never installed on the vehicle thats when the unlogical stuff happens it just dont put out the same as it does on the bench.  Ask yourself how many youtube video's you see with the guys makeing high liters per minute off the vehicle.  That's just some of my observations.  That's also why the power company throws a fit when all these never see snow Texans hookup generators to the home electrical system and dont throw their main breaker and they send their low amp 240 or 120 back up the pole and the transformer steps it back up and people get killed.

[Bob]

Well, from where I stand I don't see much use for high voltage in Hydroxy gas generation
for a few reasons,  the first  being safty, the high voltage in a car coil is enough to realy wake a person but hardly do you any harm unless you hurt your self from the reaction to it
<GRIN>  but that is because the amperage is very low indeed in the Milli amps...
and when you start talking about 150,000 vdc at 5 amps its not only deadly but extreamily hadzardous on equipment as well... and that is relivitely low amperage too !
but extreamily high voltage, which would make an arc about a foot long and fry your butt so fast as to not be funny !....
so to me Having High voltage and low amperage is too hadzardious to use.
where I am not scared at all to use 12vdc and 200 amps... yet that will weld mild steel easily...  the voltage is the key...
 I have been bit by a 12vdc battery before and anyone that says it can't happen doesn't know that it actually can !  believe me you don't want to make a good connection on a 12v car battery through your arms, or other parts of your anatomy given that !!!
it hit me with such a whollop I could hardly believe it... I made the circuit with my arms and it went up one arm accross my chest and down the other and it was like being hit in the chest with a sledge hammer at full swing... at the time I was grabbing the battery by the terminals, and getting ready to lift it and put it in the truck ( just charged it ) I had lifted batteries like that all my life ...but do NOT any more ! I lift them from the bottom now hehehehehehehe ! Hot summer day sweating like a racehorse and Whamm... I picked my self up off the ground and desided that a change in picking up car batteries was in order !
....
so even Low voltage can get you, it is indeed rare but it can happen
...
I've been bit by the electrical system in engines so many times its not funny, car coils
don't really bother me , nore do magnetos they make me jump but thats about all....
that is How I guage weather the sparking system is working properly or not... feeling the pulse can tell you weather or not  the points are working right , or the condencer is leaking, its a fool proof method that I have used for years... but I know it has very low amperage is the only reason I can do that and get away with it.
 if you are to use extreamily High voltage say 150,000 volts on a Hydroxy cell and very very low amps  you'ed still have the same equivelant "POWER" going to the cell as Low Voltage and extreamily High amperage... so you gain nothing the power is the same
unless some one proves that High voltage rips the molicules of water appart easier than High amperage, I can see no advantage and many disadvantages to doing it that way
...
so I guess unless its proven that High voltage rips the water appart better, I'll stick to the old method ! <GRIN>
...
Bob......

[Manta]

RE,
...Reason tells me that if I have 1 cell that puts out 2LPM at 20 amps  I should be able to get 6LPM out of 3 cells of the same type , However this is harder than it sounds...

I'm having a bit of trouble with this.
Let's go through it in stages.

Say I have three identical cells.  Any one, when connected to the truck will give 2 LPM and will draw 20 Amp.

Your saying that if I connect all three in parallel to the supply,  and the resultant draw is 60 Amp,  then I won't get 2 LPM from each cell = 6 LPM.  Even though each cell is drawing the same amperage at the same voltage (because they are connected to the same supply).

Manta

[Bob]

No... not exactly...
what I'm saying is that in series ( not parallel) 3 cells at 30 amps puts out about 2~3LPM
is all.... where anyone of them (their all in the same bath) hooked up seperately
will get 2~2.5LPM   hooking 2 up and feeding them the same amperage as a single cell
(20 amps) will get you only 1LPM ...
and adding the 3rd cell is even worse it results in about 1/4LPM
...
 this is contary to what you guys have been saying about a series hookup and is why I have persisted in telling you that it don't work that way....
 in order to get the doubled output for 2 cells in series You have to double the amperage
if you want tripple output you have to tripple the amperage up to 60 amps....
just hooking the cells in series and keeping the amps at the original amount doesn't work !
...... PERIOD !
 I know this because I've ran into the problem my self and could not give the cell enough amperage to make it do the production that it should have produced with 3 cells.... I only had 30 amps to give it....
 I'm not the only one that ran into this problem  Randy ran into the same thing ...
I don't care what the Science says about series and parallel hookups it simply don't work that way !
 if you hook up one cell in my container you get 2LPM at 20 amps... any cell, I tested all 3 and they all produce the same at 20 amps....
there is no way to hook up 3 cells and keep the amps at 20 amps and have the cells produce the same amount...no way !  it takes more amperage !
 IN THEORY if you hooked all 3 cells in Parallel and had 60  amps to give them it should produce 6LPM... but when you try that and run out of amperage its harder than it seams !
 ...
So I disconnected one of the 3 cells ( the middle one) and connected the outside 2 in parallel and tried to get to 40 amps to test.... I could only get to 31 amps before the saturation of the water stopped me from drawing any more amperage,...it was a very strong concentration of KOH !  the cell did produce fairly well though probly about 4LPM to start with, but soon dropped to less than 1LPM due to the Coffee colored KOH.... that lasted less than a day by the way. 
so 3 in parallel with 60 amps should produce 3 times the original 2LPM  YES
but its harder to accomplish than you think...
first being the amp draw is more than my truck can handle without a new altenator
and secondly the Saturation of the electrolyte will Stop at around 24 to 25 amps useing 3 cells.... how are you going to draw more amps if you can't get the electrolyte to conduct enough ?.....
 so in theory it "SHOULD work" but in practice it doesn't ! you can't get the amp draw high enough to accomplish 60amps draw !....at least not in the same container !
in 3 seperate containers it should be do-able but heat will be a major concern then and
each cell will have to have a cooling system....
...
so 3 cells in 3 seperate containers all set to draw 20 amps should indeed put out 6LPM
but thats not what I have, I have 3 in 1 container and all those plates in the same bath restrict me on the amount of amps I can draw ! due to the limitations of the saturation point of water.
...
understand ?
Bob........

[Painless]

From the tests and research through reading I've done it seems to be the case that electrolysis is unusual in that it is amperage that does all the work, not wattage.  We all know that 10 volts at 10 amps is 100 watts or power, as is 1 volt at 100 amps the same, however, Faraday proved that 50 amps at 1.5 volts per cell produces EXACTLY the same amount of HHO at 50 amps at 100 volts.  The ideal voltage per cell is in the 1.23 to 1.5 volt range, any more than that and you will be wasting those extra watts on producing heat.

Up until recently, I've always used five neutrals in my dry cells, which at my Ram's 14.1 volts gives me 2.35 volts per cell.  This does give very good production in the region of 6.4 MMW, but will warm up (albeit slowly) when the vehicle isn't moving (my dry cell is behind the grill where it gets lots of air).

I've started experimenting recently with a dry cell that uses more neutrals, the aim here is to produce a cell (which Faraday said was possible) that will sit at room temperature and produce at a very high MMW rate.  After I finish my last evening at work today I will have 11 days vacation time during which I will be (hopefully) completing these tests.  I'm going to build a dry cell at under 1.5 volts per cell gap and use a PWM to slowly raise the amps until temperature starts to change.  Theoretically, if Faraday was correct, I should be able to find a configuration (likely at 1.2 ish volts per cell gap) where amperage increase does not result in a temperature rise but will simply reach a ceiling where it cannot go any higher.  This should, theoretically, be the most efficient cell.

One application I have heard of for high voltage in electrolysis is in order to use *just* pure distilled water as your electrolyte with no catalyst.  The high voltage (in the order of 5,000 volts) will allow a 1 mm (0.040") cell gap to be crossed and HHO to be produced.

I'm rambling... I tend to do that a lot, sorry, but I do enjoy sharing and discussing anything to do with HHO

Russ.

[Manta]

I've also been wondering about this business of wattage.
After all, if you hook together three cells in series then the overall resistance is multiplied by three.
To get the same current as before you will either have to reduce the resistance in each cell,  or increase the voltage applied.
A cell drawing 20 amp at 12 volt has a resistance of 0.6 ohm and power of 240 watt.
Three in series have a resistance of 1.8 ohm and thus the current will drop to 6.66 amp,  as found.
So,  as you can't up the voltage,  you have to reduce the resistance. hence the need to increase the electrolyte.

Manta

[Bob]

Well, you have to understand that Faraday lived a very long time ago and we have progressed a long way from his time.... the same can be said for Newton and some of his conclusions although his conclusions are harder to disprove than Faradays...
I tend to use what these bright men found as a Guide line... not as indisputable FACT.
simply because I have seen with my own eyes too many of the so called "LAWS" disproven
... Faraday also said that there was a limiton the HHO that could be produced and yet
B.Mayer Clamed to have achieved production of 2000 times more than Faraday said was possable
So I suggest you fellers take the so called "LAWS" with a grain of salt...
as I am fond of saying "Laws are meant to be broken" not meaning those of our society but the laws of nature and of science... we are not far enough along to say that we understand everything there is to know about the world around us... we're still learning as Humans and as individuals, so saying that any of the so called "Laws" are un breakable is silly.
 Newton explained gravity although he didn't understand what caused it, besides "some mysterious property of mass" . that doesn't mean Gravity cannot be made by other methods
and the same goes for Faraday in his HHO work his findings were great for their time but that doesn't mean that you cannot get more than what he said you could.... after all he was just a man , not a God ! he more or less OUTLINED the production of HHO for us but by no means tried every method possable to produce HHO...  and therefore cannot be totally correct in his figures of this amount of power will produce this amount of HHO...because
a exotic metal may well help HHO production, or a certain Resonant frequancy may improve production ... you don't know unless you try it...
we are in New territory here guys, don't think for a second that if there was a way to make 100LPM at 10amps ,some one would already have done it ! there may well be a way !
...
I fought this type of thinking on the Rotory wing forum for years and finally gave up!
to them everything has already been discovered and there is no new ground to explore
( probably over simplifying it to say the least, but you get my point)
 Every person out there can make a new discovery, its just putting the pieces togater
in your own personal way to come up with a gem !
  we do not know it all and won't for a very long time to come yet.... so use the "Laws of Nature & Science" as a Guide... but keep your eyes open, and your thoughts receptive to new ideas... if the new ideas  contradict Known laws, it should be a flag..."caution" ! but NOT by any means impossable!
....
for some reason the smarter the person is the harder it is for them to accept this... I guess because so much of their accumulated knowledge is based upon Known Laws that it puts all their knowledge at risk of meaning nothing, I don't realy know... but it is harder to accept for a Man with a PHD than it is for a Ditch digger that dropped out of school.
...
but it is "Common sense"... Question everything...especially what the "Laws" say
...
 my 2 coppers!
Bob......


 

[Painless]

as I am fond of saying "Laws are meant to be broken" not meaning those of our society but the laws of nature and of science... we are not far enough along to say that we understand everything there is to know about the world around us... we're still learning as Humans and as individuals, so saying that any of the so called "Laws" are un breakable is silly.

Don't misunderstand me Bob, I agree with you 100%.  I'm open minded about every fact or law that has been uncovered so far, if I wasn't I wouldn't continue to experiment with different configurations pushing these laws in the hope of breaking them, I'd be blindly building a generator from Faradays original exact specs and saying "It's finished!".

If it ever gets to the point where we are, as you say, "fighting" this kind of thinking then something has gone terribly wrong.  I encourage and enjoy open discussion and opt out of the "fighting" and "closed minded opinions".

Russ.