Transformers

[Bob]

When goofing around with different ideas to up production in Hydroxy cells you may decide to up voltage or amperage or both.
...
I thought about this for a while and then thought All I need is a transformer the type used in most power supplies, and I could more or less do what I please with the power.
... UNFORTUNATELY... transformers work great on AC and not DC ( or so I have been told,and now believe this is true) because it is the Change in the EMF that makes a transformer work
and if the voltage is constant and no change the transformer does nothing but heat up !
....
I believe this is why Bob Boyce used a 12v to 220vac inverter on his 101 plate series cell
because he couldn't get the DC voltage that high very easy with a simple transformer
but he could with an Inverter !. in the end his 101 plate cell fed with 220v DC ( he rectified the 220AC to DC and fed the cell with that) did indeed produce a hudge amount of Hydroxy gas , on the order of 54LPM if I remember correctly... but his costs for the large inverter were staggering ! if you price a 5000 watt DC to AC inverter you will understand what I mean.... they are very expensive ! yet alone that makes 220vac ! as they are hard to find!
....
this might help you from going down the wrong path as I had !
....
Bob.........

[numberonekiwi]

Bob I think the cost of a 400 - 500 Amp Alternator to produce 5000 watts would be even greater than the inverter itself

[Bob]

Yah I think your right there ! I went to some High output alternator site for marine use
and they wanted something like $2000. for a 500amp alternator... their not cheep at all!
so the idea of using an inverter is probably a money saving way to get around the high expense.... but you still have to supply the amps to the inverter...so you won't get away from the alternator problem , but you can use 2 or 3, 200 amp alternators instead.
....
i've ran inverters constantly for a few years. when I built a log cabin near Big Ben,CA
that is what I had for electricity, I used a 2000 watt inverter and hooked it to the battery on my 1968 Pontiac Bonneville and it would last a day or so without a chargeing , and I used it every night for TV and CB Radio, with linnier amp 150~200 watts
I wound up just going 12 volts as it was more echonimical on the amps than useing the inverter but there were a few things that still required the inverter.
 I fried the inverter by hooking it up backwards one rainy day and that was the end of it
I tried to order the transysters for it numerous times but could never afford it...
it still sets in the shed ! <GRIN>
 At the Ranch I plan on making a wind generator to charge the batteries and then power the inverter ( I sense then have bought a 2500watt dc to AC inverter) and that would give me electricity , because where I plan on putting my Abode is about 1/2 mile away from the electrical hookup... how ever I might be able to get them to hook it up from another line , if so its as close as 1000ft away !
....
An inverter uses power when its on , weather your running something off the AC or not
and that is a constant drain on the batteries,  so all in all its better to go straight 12 vdc in most cases.
...
but when we talk about big hydroxy cells such as Bob Boyces' 101 plate series cell  the inverter is the most logical solution, but the problem is giving it enough amperage
although the voltage is there because of the inverter, the amperage is actually quite low
only 166.666 amps or so... P(watts)=I(amps)xE(voltage)  2000/12=166.6666
although at first that SOUNDS like more than ample amperage to run the cell its not if you start figuring in plate area.... and you want to have your amps PSI up to at least.3 amps per square inch .... and with 101 plates  thats just not anywhere enough amperage at all
...
so the answer may well be smaller plates but the same number....
instead of 12"x12" PLATES PERHAPS  3"X3" would operate good at that amperage
 lets see if it does....
3x3=9 sqr.inches per plate 9x101=909 sqr. in. in plate area.
909x.30amps=272.7 amps.... so unless we get more amps to play with the idea will simply not work.
...
150 amps ( not maxing the inverter) /909 in=0.1650..... barely enough to just start producing Hydroxy gas !
....
so doubling the amperage is the only way you will get something like this to produce
and a 4000 watt inverter is very expensive indeed ! but it would make it work !
....
 So what you wind up with is eather having to buy expensive altenators or expensive inverters.... and more than likely both if you want to use it constantly !
and that means moocho Denaro !  more than I can come up with in any case !
....but the guy that has the money to do it , I think its the way to go for assured High LPM production.
...
thats how I see it anyway !
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

Bob I am not sure if my math is right here but with 101 series plates at a given voltage of 202 volts gives us 2 volts or so per cell with a 12x12 plate =144 sq and at .3 amps/sq inch would be about 48 amps as all the other plates are in series and not each tied to a supply

the same would apply to 6 plates and 12 volts the amperage would be the same if you allowed .3 amps/sq inch cut it down even simpler 2 plates with 2 volts supply and .3 amps/sq inch would still only be 48 amps

A series circuit will not draw more current by adding more plates in series ( you would actually start lowering it unless you incressed your voltage by 2 volts per plate ) however if it were wired like the randy cell then yes you are correct in what you say

[Bob]

NumberoneKiwi :
 Believe me I know what you are saying, but in my experiments it shows me that it doesn't work out that way....
 Your right that all my electricity and electronics training in school told me that the amps would stay the same through the circuit.... but that only works if you have a "NON Reactive load".... a Reactive load is much diferent in how it works.
consider 4 motors connected in series each motor is a 1 amp motor they work on 12vdc/1 amp draw.
 if we put these motors in series and feed it 4x12=48vdc at 1 amp.... what your saying is they should run fine... but in reality none of them would work at all because they are Reactive.... they use up power in themselves so although the first motor in line might try to turn the drag of the others in line would lower its power to a point of not turning at all....
in order to get these 4 motors to turn at their proper RPM you would have to feed it 48vdc at 4 amps then they would work...all of them would turn (in theory!)
this is because in series the voltage is devided among the elements AND so is the amperage
if the elements are a Reactive Load.
...
Lightbulbs are the same, they are reactive as well.... 4 12vdc bulbs in series  would need 48 volts in order to each their correct brightness, but we tend to forget about how much amperage is being used when playing with lightbulbs because they use so little...
but if you fed the string of lights with enough amps for only one bulb they all would barely glow at all...
 Amperage is the Pushing power of the voltage FLOW... if there is not enough amps to push it through the first lightbulb or the second or the 3rd none of them will work very good at all because they are all hooked togather !
....
Your Hydroxy cell is the same way , it's plates are reactive, each plate uses up power just like a motor or a lightbulb. as the Voltage travels through the series cell it is devided among all the plates sense the 101 plate cell was designed for 120 vac to begin with Bob boyce realised that he needed more voltage so he switched to a 220vac inverter
giving as you said about 2vac per cell plate he then rectified it to DC and had 2vdc per plate... however I don't believe he ever said how many amps he used but it must have been a hudge amount because every plate in the system is reactive and useing power so ALL the plate area needs to be accounted for and at 144sqr in each plate x 101 plates is a bunch of plate area....14544sqr inches... if he had cept the 0.36amps per sqr.in. as I stated before , he would have needed 0.36x 14544=5235 amps....( which obviously he didn't do !)
if he had done that his output would have been 0.036 per sqr in or .03636x14544=528.81LPM
but he only got something like 54LPM because his amperage was so low PER SQUARE INCH OF PLATE AREA..
 he had close to 1485 amps as close as I can figure, and that gave him only 0.12 amps per sqr inch... which is barely enough to make it produce ... but it did.
.......
this is actually good news to those of us that are trying to make a cell to produce 25 to 30LPM.... we don't need to go as big as that 101 plate cell... in fact, its way too big!
...
 
Now You should realise, that I don't know all this for a fact.... I am speculateing on what I know, but the numbers seam to fit so thats close enough for me !
...
You need to realise that in a series hookup where things consume power the amps are used up
and it cannot stay the same as it passes along through the curcuit the amperage drops at every element just as the voltage does because its being used up to make hydroxy gas and heat... when work is done heat is the result and you cannot get that power back because its  changed form, that form it changed into is Hydroxy gas and heat... and if each plate is produceing in the cell each plate is takeing away from the initial power that came into the cell in the first place.... till there is nothing left .
...
does that make sense to you ?
Bob.........

 


 

[Manta]

Bob,

You been on the Xmas moonshine ?

Re,...Lightbulbs are the same, they are reactive as well...

Light bulbs are resistive loads.  simply bits of tungsten wire in a vacuum. And here,... Amperage is the Pushing power of the voltage FLOW.... Sorry,  wrong way around.  Remember that an old name for voltage is EMF,  electro motive force. The voltage is the force and the amperage is the quantity
.  Before anyone picks me up on this,  I do know that the proper way to describe quantity is in Coulombs,  but we don't usually need the time aspect.

Re,....but if you fed the string of lights with enough amps for only one bulb they all would barely glow at all..
You can't feed a circuit amps.  The current passing through it will depend upon the resistance in the circuit and the voltage applied to it.

Time to put down that jar and hit the black coffee.

Numberonekiwi.
if you are already in 2009,  whats it like ?

Manta

[scratch1676]

Manta,  how do you think Bob get up the nerve to sit below a propeller spinning at high rpm?  Why do you think he lives in the mountains?  I swore I seen a moonshine rig in the background of some of his pics.  LOL   Just kidding Bob.  I do love to joke around alot.  You ought to see what we do to each other out at work.  You would laugh so hard you would wet yourself.   I aint going to get into the details but picture the smell of a real skunk in the air and then picture it being dark outside and then picture a stuffed animal that looks like a skunk on a long skinny stick being run out of the bushes at the poor coworker that happens to being walking up to my shop at work.  he  he  Grown men do scream like girls.

[numberonekiwi]

Ok Bob I dont really know about current passing through an inductive load, but as for light bulbs ( resistors ) a 12 V 12 W light would draw 1 A to fully illuminate if we had 4 in series it would require 48 V of voltage and would give you 48 W of light which is still only 1 A - Inductors I will pass on

Manta been 2009 here for a little more than 8 hours had to work it until 7AM was the busiest night ever I work in a shell station ( well I did this was my last night of work there jumping the fence to work for BP ) but 2009 is good so far it may even be the year we get 100% hydroxy for our cars

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

[Bob]

Ok , OK I regress Manta is right , so is Kiwi... I got me bulbs turned around!
and Manta is also right on the PUSH it is the voltage that does the pushing not the amps
the amps is the VOLUME ...think of it as a water hose  20 PSI on a 1/2" hose squirts water a long way...
20 psi on a 3ft diamator hose isn't going to go very far out ...lots of volume though
the volume can be compaired to amperage !
....
thank you for takeing me back to school again Manta... I need that Allot ! <GRIN>
...
Resistive loads are diferent than Reactive loads this is also very true so my anology sux !
....
but I THINK the idea of 3 motors in series explains it best anyway....
getting them all to spin at the proper given RPM would take increaseing the Amperage
and voltage BOTH.... Correct ?
...
( now that I got your attention.... that is realy the true question here.)
although you could argue that the plates in a hydroxy cell are Resistive and not reactive,
I would balk at that, because Reactive needs capasitance to change the EMF going through it and these plates have those properties ... YES ?
so... they are reactive and act just like electric motors do when hooked in series !
thats all I am saying ....
Now... is that right or wrong ?
... and no you didn't see my still, its better hidden than that !!!!!!
HAHAHAHAH
Bob.......

[Bob]

HAHAH Scratch I could just see that ! Should'a used a big stuffed bear though and made grunting sounds... that would definately get their attention !
...
Skunks ... I doubt I'ed have batted an eye...I feed the little varments cat food all the time!... I stepped out one evening to feed the critters and almost stepped on Momm'a Skunk that had 4 little ones with her ( they were further away though luckilly!)
and there I am standing with a big pot full of cat food fer them and I was not fast enough
Momma skink turned around and looked at me and then waddled off as if to say well, what took you so long !
... I've been spreyed a few times mostly because I was trying to catch the dog every time
its like "NO, NO DUMMIE thats a SKUNK ! you don't wann'a chase that !"  but vinegar in a sprey bottle cures the skunk smell in short order... hard on doggy noses though ! but believe me they welcome the vinegar ! waaaah thats bad stuff !
 between the skunks and racoons theres barely enough left for the stray cats ! HAHAHAHA
nuttin cuiter than a Momm'a skunk leading 7 babies to the cat feeder though I must admit !
...might bit smelly if someone makes her mad though, but I can walk right by her or her kids and only get "Stomped" at.......
we had a skunk fight under the house about 2 years ago... man that was bad !
after a while ya don't smell it though ! and your eyes quit watering... and the head ache goes away... happened in wintertime with all the windows taped off so we left both doors open half the night ! ... silly things, but even at that I'ed rather have them as neighbors than Humans !  HAHAHAHAH ... what me anti social ? HEHEHEH
Bob.....

[Painless]

If the goal here is to achieve a higher voltage, would not a coil similar to an ignition coil provide the needed volts at a much lower cost?  You would need to pulse the output, but this should be possible at a high rate comparable to a PWM.

[Bob]

An ignition coil would not handle the amps needed but you could wind your own coil around an iron core and achieve the same results i suppose...
 but as you said you would have to pulse it with a coil, make and break the contact in order to achieve the real high voltage
... I was mainly thinking of things like 101 plates and how to feed that many plates with only 12 vdc.... or even 50 plates in series would be very hard to get the needed voltage to each plate without useing some sort of voltage raising do-hicky !
<GRIN>
.... so I wasn't thinking 150,000v but mearly something like 24 or 48vdc and useing stright DC you may well have truble doing that ....
I was exploreing the verious ways it is possable, converting to AC and then useing a transformer is one way, but it is very expensive and hard to construct...
there has to be a better way !...
I know you could convert the truck to 24vdc and have 2 batteries and a new altenator
but thats probly even more expensive than the first option....
any one got any better ideas on how to get 24 vdc out of 12 or even 48vdc out of 12vdc?
I think as we get into bigger cells this will be nessarry !
...
Bob......

[numberonekiwi]

Bob 24 volts may be easy alot of trucks run 24V ( big rigs ) but usually use 2 x 12 volt batteries, so they may well have a 24 V alternator most of the electrics are also 24 volt including radio lights etc

As for 48 V electric forklift comes to mind but they dont have alternators and there cells 24 x 2V are horendously expensive for us hobiests not sure what a charger for them costs

[scratch1676]

you can go with golf cart stuff should be able to get some used stuff fairly cheap.

[Manta]

scratch,
You know why they call the nut that holds the rotor in place 'the Jesus Nut' ?  If it fails then Jesus is the next person you will be talking to.  I always fancied running a gyro.  But over here everything is tied up with red tape.  I do have a few hours towards my PPL on a Cessna 150,  but no chance of getting the license now. Aeroplanes go through your money faster than women. not much faster though.
As for Bob's stil, I thought everyone in the mountains had one,  and played the banjo.

Bob,
Next time your back in school,  if you look toward the back row you may see someone trying to hide behind his books.  Guess who.
The plates in a cell do indeed have capacitance.  After all,  a capacitor is just metal plates with a dielectric between. The electrolyte does a similar,  but not quite the same, thing in that the idea of the dielectric is to act as an insulator that prevents the flow of current whilst a electrolite is to promote the flow of current.
What is interesting is how the plates hold a charge after the power is removed.  As i mentioned before,  I reckon that the nickel in the ss is causing the cell to work as a weak battery.  Still rather mysterious though.  Any chemists/phyisists out there ?

There seems to be a certain Frankenstein aspect to using more and more current to get the gas,  Somehow I feel that it shouldn't be neccessary ;  but I can't think why.

manta 

[scratch1676]

that's what keeps me thinking about this stuff all the time and not getting my work done around my place.  Things just dont work to theories or logic with this stuff.  I will keep trying tho. 

[Manta]

Bob,

Going back to the ac thing.  Here is a thought,  BUT it is quite dangerous. Usual warnings about personal responseability apply.

The first stage of a computer power supply works by directly rectifying the ac mains input. So,  in the USA you would have a 110 volt dc supply with a roughly square wave output. This comes before the high frequency switching stage, AND BEFORE ANY ISOLATION FROM THE MAINS (second warning).

Maybe there is scope for experiment here.

Live long and prosper (third and last warning)

Manta

[Bob]

Boy I agree with that Manta ... it just don't seam right to have to use more and more current
to get more Output... but it is very logical ,it just seams wrong, like taking a hammer to fix a watch.... ...
 I mean 200 amps to make 20LPM is a 10 to 1 ratio 10amps to 1LPM and that just seams super high.... but in reality it is taking us far more than that, more like 20:1
... My gutt tells me that it needent be that high but my brain says your lucky it ain't more!
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
....
and I'll be hanged if I can figure out why I feel that way.... it just like the airfoil  on a airplane a certain size lifts a certain amount and that too seams way too big !
maybe its because we realy don't understand how very very small AIR realy is ....
heheheh
I dunno ... something should "click" one of these days !
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Bob,
I agree that it is logical. More amps means more current,  but the proportions don't seem right.  If, say, 10 amp gives you 1 litre per minute then 50 amp should give you 5 litre per minute.  But it doesn't seem to work that way. More magic needed.

Manta

[Bob]

thats true ...
10amps=1LPM and 50amps usually means about 4LPM at the most...
but I think that is because allot of the amperage is going in to make heat in the higher amps settings... however this doesn't have to be this way if we reduce the resistance in the water to almost nothing... then your 10amps=1LPM should be 50 amps=5LPM ...but of corse there is no guarantee that it will work that way.
...
what gets me is why the 10:1 ratio... 10 amps is allot of power and I wouldn't think it should take that much to rip water apart ,but I guess we are ripping Molecules apart and fighting the small Nuke??  force that holds elements together ! and that is a very strong force. even though its labeled as a Small Nuke force, it ain't very small at all !
I guess we should be thankful we don't have to rip atoms apart ! HAHAHAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[Painless]

Bob,

Shoot me with your .50 cal if I missed something (but give me a 10 second head start first!), but if you're just looking to get the usual 2v per cell in a 101 plate setup, why not just wire up the correct number of series sets in parallel?

For example:

+12v  ----- +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           |--  +NNNNN-
           
.... and so on?  This would allow you to use a 12 volt power source, amp draw would be the only issue but you will have that problem at any voltage.

Russ.

[Bob]

Painless:
 I don't think your missing a thing, that should work fine !
the problem is all the seperate hookups <GRIN>
...
My Randy cells are like this...
 
  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

  +-+-+-+-+-+  one cell

 I have the ability on the outside of the container to attach the cells anyway I choose
as the bolts that the plates attach to are the electrical connection and mounting studs all in one.
...
if i connect these 3 cells in series they recieve  aprox 4vdc each  and sense they all are in the same electrolyte are subject to the same current draw of 30 amps
but the resulting output is extreamily low, on the order of 1.75LPM to 2LPM is all
barely equil to 1 cell by itself... and I am trying to get 6LPM out of the setup
....
 the only way I can see of getting that Output is to feed it with 60amps, and because of the saturation point  of the water being close to around a 40amp draw that becomes almost impossable.
...
I tried hooking each cell in Parallel instead of series and the heat output trippled
but so did the output... I think I was getting very close to the 6LPM on a mear 30amps
but can't be positive... and within 30 min the heat was too high to continue testing
( on the verge of boiling)
... so My conclusion is a Parallel hookup but with a cooling system attached to curculate the hot electrolyte and cool the cell unit down.
this should give me MAX output what ever amperage I use... however in the Parallel hookup the Amperage is extreamily hard to get very high, it took allot of KOH just to get it to 20 amps and didn't want to draw any more than that....

Reason tells me that if I have 1 cell that puts out 2LPM at 20 amps  I should be able to get 6LPM out of 3 cells of the same type , However this is harder than it sounds!
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

extremely high voltage means you dont need that many amps.  when I was in my twenties I was hooking up a 200 amp meter loop for a mobile home and the wire required was a 4/O-/4/0-2/0 bundle ( I think ).  I ask the power company when they came out hey man why do you make me use this huge wire and you aint got nothin but some number 4  running over here to the pole.  That was my first electrical lesson.  Transformers on the poles step down the voltage from 12,500 volts to 120 volts.  So when I see a hydroxy cell on the internet claiming 30 lpm and I see the wire size looking like #8 or #6  I know they have to be stepping up the voltage.  The problem I see with most of these high output units is they demo them on the bench and they are never installed on the vehicle thats when the unlogical stuff happens it just dont put out the same as it does on the bench.  Ask yourself how many youtube video's you see with the guys makeing high liters per minute off the vehicle.  That's just some of my observations.  That's also why the power company throws a fit when all these never see snow Texans hookup generators to the home electrical system and dont throw their main breaker and they send their low amp 240 or 120 back up the pole and the transformer steps it back up and people get killed.

[Bob]

Well, from where I stand I don't see much use for high voltage in Hydroxy gas generation
for a few reasons,  the first  being safty, the high voltage in a car coil is enough to realy wake a person but hardly do you any harm unless you hurt your self from the reaction to it
<GRIN>  but that is because the amperage is very low indeed in the Milli amps...
and when you start talking about 150,000 vdc at 5 amps its not only deadly but extreamily hadzardous on equipment as well... and that is relivitely low amperage too !
but extreamily high voltage, which would make an arc about a foot long and fry your butt so fast as to not be funny !....
so to me Having High voltage and low amperage is too hadzardious to use.
where I am not scared at all to use 12vdc and 200 amps... yet that will weld mild steel easily...  the voltage is the key...
 I have been bit by a 12vdc battery before and anyone that says it can't happen doesn't know that it actually can !  believe me you don't want to make a good connection on a 12v car battery through your arms, or other parts of your anatomy given that !!!
it hit me with such a whollop I could hardly believe it... I made the circuit with my arms and it went up one arm accross my chest and down the other and it was like being hit in the chest with a sledge hammer at full swing... at the time I was grabbing the battery by the terminals, and getting ready to lift it and put it in the truck ( just charged it ) I had lifted batteries like that all my life ...but do NOT any more ! I lift them from the bottom now hehehehehehehe ! Hot summer day sweating like a racehorse and Whamm... I picked my self up off the ground and desided that a change in picking up car batteries was in order !
....
so even Low voltage can get you, it is indeed rare but it can happen
...
I've been bit by the electrical system in engines so many times its not funny, car coils
don't really bother me , nore do magnetos they make me jump but thats about all....
that is How I guage weather the sparking system is working properly or not... feeling the pulse can tell you weather or not  the points are working right , or the condencer is leaking, its a fool proof method that I have used for years... but I know it has very low amperage is the only reason I can do that and get away with it.
 if you are to use extreamily High voltage say 150,000 volts on a Hydroxy cell and very very low amps  you'ed still have the same equivelant "POWER" going to the cell as Low Voltage and extreamily High amperage... so you gain nothing the power is the same
unless some one proves that High voltage rips the molicules of water appart easier than High amperage, I can see no advantage and many disadvantages to doing it that way
...
so I guess unless its proven that High voltage rips the water appart better, I'll stick to the old method ! <GRIN>
...
Bob......

[Manta]

RE,
...Reason tells me that if I have 1 cell that puts out 2LPM at 20 amps  I should be able to get 6LPM out of 3 cells of the same type , However this is harder than it sounds...

I'm having a bit of trouble with this.
Let's go through it in stages.

Say I have three identical cells.  Any one, when connected to the truck will give 2 LPM and will draw 20 Amp.

Your saying that if I connect all three in parallel to the supply,  and the resultant draw is 60 Amp,  then I won't get 2 LPM from each cell = 6 LPM.  Even though each cell is drawing the same amperage at the same voltage (because they are connected to the same supply).

Manta

[Bob]

No... not exactly...
what I'm saying is that in series ( not parallel) 3 cells at 30 amps puts out about 2~3LPM
is all.... where anyone of them (their all in the same bath) hooked up seperately
will get 2~2.5LPM   hooking 2 up and feeding them the same amperage as a single cell
(20 amps) will get you only 1LPM ...
and adding the 3rd cell is even worse it results in about 1/4LPM
...
 this is contary to what you guys have been saying about a series hookup and is why I have persisted in telling you that it don't work that way....
 in order to get the doubled output for 2 cells in series You have to double the amperage
if you want tripple output you have to tripple the amperage up to 60 amps....
just hooking the cells in series and keeping the amps at the original amount doesn't work !
...... PERIOD !
 I know this because I've ran into the problem my self and could not give the cell enough amperage to make it do the production that it should have produced with 3 cells.... I only had 30 amps to give it....
 I'm not the only one that ran into this problem  Randy ran into the same thing ...
I don't care what the Science says about series and parallel hookups it simply don't work that way !
 if you hook up one cell in my container you get 2LPM at 20 amps... any cell, I tested all 3 and they all produce the same at 20 amps....
there is no way to hook up 3 cells and keep the amps at 20 amps and have the cells produce the same amount...no way !  it takes more amperage !
 IN THEORY if you hooked all 3 cells in Parallel and had 60  amps to give them it should produce 6LPM... but when you try that and run out of amperage its harder than it seams !
 ...
So I disconnected one of the 3 cells ( the middle one) and connected the outside 2 in parallel and tried to get to 40 amps to test.... I could only get to 31 amps before the saturation of the water stopped me from drawing any more amperage,...it was a very strong concentration of KOH !  the cell did produce fairly well though probly about 4LPM to start with, but soon dropped to less than 1LPM due to the Coffee colored KOH.... that lasted less than a day by the way. 
so 3 in parallel with 60 amps should produce 3 times the original 2LPM  YES
but its harder to accomplish than you think...
first being the amp draw is more than my truck can handle without a new altenator
and secondly the Saturation of the electrolyte will Stop at around 24 to 25 amps useing 3 cells.... how are you going to draw more amps if you can't get the electrolyte to conduct enough ?.....
 so in theory it "SHOULD work" but in practice it doesn't ! you can't get the amp draw high enough to accomplish 60amps draw !....at least not in the same container !
in 3 seperate containers it should be do-able but heat will be a major concern then and
each cell will have to have a cooling system....
...
so 3 cells in 3 seperate containers all set to draw 20 amps should indeed put out 6LPM
but thats not what I have, I have 3 in 1 container and all those plates in the same bath restrict me on the amount of amps I can draw ! due to the limitations of the saturation point of water.
...
understand ?
Bob........

[Painless]

From the tests and research through reading I've done it seems to be the case that electrolysis is unusual in that it is amperage that does all the work, not wattage.  We all know that 10 volts at 10 amps is 100 watts or power, as is 1 volt at 100 amps the same, however, Faraday proved that 50 amps at 1.5 volts per cell produces EXACTLY the same amount of HHO at 50 amps at 100 volts.  The ideal voltage per cell is in the 1.23 to 1.5 volt range, any more than that and you will be wasting those extra watts on producing heat.

Up until recently, I've always used five neutrals in my dry cells, which at my Ram's 14.1 volts gives me 2.35 volts per cell.  This does give very good production in the region of 6.4 MMW, but will warm up (albeit slowly) when the vehicle isn't moving (my dry cell is behind the grill where it gets lots of air).

I've started experimenting recently with a dry cell that uses more neutrals, the aim here is to produce a cell (which Faraday said was possible) that will sit at room temperature and produce at a very high MMW rate.  After I finish my last evening at work today I will have 11 days vacation time during which I will be (hopefully) completing these tests.  I'm going to build a dry cell at under 1.5 volts per cell gap and use a PWM to slowly raise the amps until temperature starts to change.  Theoretically, if Faraday was correct, I should be able to find a configuration (likely at 1.2 ish volts per cell gap) where amperage increase does not result in a temperature rise but will simply reach a ceiling where it cannot go any higher.  This should, theoretically, be the most efficient cell.

One application I have heard of for high voltage in electrolysis is in order to use *just* pure distilled water as your electrolyte with no catalyst.  The high voltage (in the order of 5,000 volts) will allow a 1 mm (0.040") cell gap to be crossed and HHO to be produced.

I'm rambling... I tend to do that a lot, sorry, but I do enjoy sharing and discussing anything to do with HHO

Russ.

[Manta]

I've also been wondering about this business of wattage.
After all, if you hook together three cells in series then the overall resistance is multiplied by three.
To get the same current as before you will either have to reduce the resistance in each cell,  or increase the voltage applied.
A cell drawing 20 amp at 12 volt has a resistance of 0.6 ohm and power of 240 watt.
Three in series have a resistance of 1.8 ohm and thus the current will drop to 6.66 amp,  as found.
So,  as you can't up the voltage,  you have to reduce the resistance. hence the need to increase the electrolyte.

Manta

[Bob]

Well, you have to understand that Faraday lived a very long time ago and we have progressed a long way from his time.... the same can be said for Newton and some of his conclusions although his conclusions are harder to disprove than Faradays...
I tend to use what these bright men found as a Guide line... not as indisputable FACT.
simply because I have seen with my own eyes too many of the so called "LAWS" disproven
... Faraday also said that there was a limiton the HHO that could be produced and yet
B.Mayer Clamed to have achieved production of 2000 times more than Faraday said was possable
So I suggest you fellers take the so called "LAWS" with a grain of salt...
as I am fond of saying "Laws are meant to be broken" not meaning those of our society but the laws of nature and of science... we are not far enough along to say that we understand everything there is to know about the world around us... we're still learning as Humans and as individuals, so saying that any of the so called "Laws" are un breakable is silly.
 Newton explained gravity although he didn't understand what caused it, besides "some mysterious property of mass" . that doesn't mean Gravity cannot be made by other methods
and the same goes for Faraday in his HHO work his findings were great for their time but that doesn't mean that you cannot get more than what he said you could.... after all he was just a man , not a God ! he more or less OUTLINED the production of HHO for us but by no means tried every method possable to produce HHO...  and therefore cannot be totally correct in his figures of this amount of power will produce this amount of HHO...because
a exotic metal may well help HHO production, or a certain Resonant frequancy may improve production ... you don't know unless you try it...
we are in New territory here guys, don't think for a second that if there was a way to make 100LPM at 10amps ,some one would already have done it ! there may well be a way !
...
I fought this type of thinking on the Rotory wing forum for years and finally gave up!
to them everything has already been discovered and there is no new ground to explore
( probably over simplifying it to say the least, but you get my point)
 Every person out there can make a new discovery, its just putting the pieces togater
in your own personal way to come up with a gem !
  we do not know it all and won't for a very long time to come yet.... so use the "Laws of Nature & Science" as a Guide... but keep your eyes open, and your thoughts receptive to new ideas... if the new ideas  contradict Known laws, it should be a flag..."caution" ! but NOT by any means impossable!
....
for some reason the smarter the person is the harder it is for them to accept this... I guess because so much of their accumulated knowledge is based upon Known Laws that it puts all their knowledge at risk of meaning nothing, I don't realy know... but it is harder to accept for a Man with a PHD than it is for a Ditch digger that dropped out of school.
...
but it is "Common sense"... Question everything...especially what the "Laws" say
...
 my 2 coppers!
Bob......


 

[Painless]

as I am fond of saying "Laws are meant to be broken" not meaning those of our society but the laws of nature and of science... we are not far enough along to say that we understand everything there is to know about the world around us... we're still learning as Humans and as individuals, so saying that any of the so called "Laws" are un breakable is silly.

Don't misunderstand me Bob, I agree with you 100%.  I'm open minded about every fact or law that has been uncovered so far, if I wasn't I wouldn't continue to experiment with different configurations pushing these laws in the hope of breaking them, I'd be blindly building a generator from Faradays original exact specs and saying "It's finished!".

If it ever gets to the point where we are, as you say, "fighting" this kind of thinking then something has gone terribly wrong.  I encourage and enjoy open discussion and opt out of the "fighting" and "closed minded opinions".

Russ.

[Bob]

hehehe YAH I agree there Russ ! thats why I finally left the Rotory wing forum, I learned a great deal there, but ran into more closed minds than I care to tell !
and a few that were plane venomous to say the least,...
 I totally understand about someone being SURE of themselves... but positive beyond any doubt buggs the heck out of me .... HAHHAHAHA a personal quirk I guess... hehehe "no ones perfect!"
...
but experimention is the key !
keep up the good work !
...
Bob.....