Transformers

[Bob]

When goofing around with different ideas to up production in Hydroxy cells you may decide to up voltage or amperage or both.
...
I thought about this for a while and then thought All I need is a transformer the type used in most power supplies, and I could more or less do what I please with the power.
... UNFORTUNATELY... transformers work great on AC and not DC ( or so I have been told,and now believe this is true) because it is the Change in the EMF that makes a transformer work
and if the voltage is constant and no change the transformer does nothing but heat up !
....
I believe this is why Bob Boyce used a 12v to 220vac inverter on his 101 plate series cell
because he couldn't get the DC voltage that high very easy with a simple transformer
but he could with an Inverter !. in the end his 101 plate cell fed with 220v DC ( he rectified the 220AC to DC and fed the cell with that) did indeed produce a hudge amount of Hydroxy gas , on the order of 54LPM if I remember correctly... but his costs for the large inverter were staggering ! if you price a 5000 watt DC to AC inverter you will understand what I mean.... they are very expensive ! yet alone that makes 220vac ! as they are hard to find!
....
this might help you from going down the wrong path as I had !
....
Bob.........

[numberonekiwi]

Bob I think the cost of a 400 - 500 Amp Alternator to produce 5000 watts would be even greater than the inverter itself

[Bob]

Yah I think your right there ! I went to some High output alternator site for marine use
and they wanted something like $2000. for a 500amp alternator... their not cheep at all!
so the idea of using an inverter is probably a money saving way to get around the high expense.... but you still have to supply the amps to the inverter...so you won't get away from the alternator problem , but you can use 2 or 3, 200 amp alternators instead.
....
i've ran inverters constantly for a few years. when I built a log cabin near Big Ben,CA
that is what I had for electricity, I used a 2000 watt inverter and hooked it to the battery on my 1968 Pontiac Bonneville and it would last a day or so without a chargeing , and I used it every night for TV and CB Radio, with linnier amp 150~200 watts
I wound up just going 12 volts as it was more echonimical on the amps than useing the inverter but there were a few things that still required the inverter.
 I fried the inverter by hooking it up backwards one rainy day and that was the end of it
I tried to order the transysters for it numerous times but could never afford it...
it still sets in the shed ! <GRIN>
 At the Ranch I plan on making a wind generator to charge the batteries and then power the inverter ( I sense then have bought a 2500watt dc to AC inverter) and that would give me electricity , because where I plan on putting my Abode is about 1/2 mile away from the electrical hookup... how ever I might be able to get them to hook it up from another line , if so its as close as 1000ft away !
....
An inverter uses power when its on , weather your running something off the AC or not
and that is a constant drain on the batteries,  so all in all its better to go straight 12 vdc in most cases.
...
but when we talk about big hydroxy cells such as Bob Boyces' 101 plate series cell  the inverter is the most logical solution, but the problem is giving it enough amperage
although the voltage is there because of the inverter, the amperage is actually quite low
only 166.666 amps or so... P(watts)=I(amps)xE(voltage)  2000/12=166.6666
although at first that SOUNDS like more than ample amperage to run the cell its not if you start figuring in plate area.... and you want to have your amps PSI up to at least.3 amps per square inch .... and with 101 plates  thats just not anywhere enough amperage at all
...
so the answer may well be smaller plates but the same number....
instead of 12"x12" PLATES PERHAPS  3"X3" would operate good at that amperage
 lets see if it does....
3x3=9 sqr.inches per plate 9x101=909 sqr. in. in plate area.
909x.30amps=272.7 amps.... so unless we get more amps to play with the idea will simply not work.
...
150 amps ( not maxing the inverter) /909 in=0.1650..... barely enough to just start producing Hydroxy gas !
....
so doubling the amperage is the only way you will get something like this to produce
and a 4000 watt inverter is very expensive indeed ! but it would make it work !
....
 So what you wind up with is eather having to buy expensive altenators or expensive inverters.... and more than likely both if you want to use it constantly !
and that means moocho Denaro !  more than I can come up with in any case !
....but the guy that has the money to do it , I think its the way to go for assured High LPM production.
...
thats how I see it anyway !
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

Bob I am not sure if my math is right here but with 101 series plates at a given voltage of 202 volts gives us 2 volts or so per cell with a 12x12 plate =144 sq and at .3 amps/sq inch would be about 48 amps as all the other plates are in series and not each tied to a supply

the same would apply to 6 plates and 12 volts the amperage would be the same if you allowed .3 amps/sq inch cut it down even simpler 2 plates with 2 volts supply and .3 amps/sq inch would still only be 48 amps

A series circuit will not draw more current by adding more plates in series ( you would actually start lowering it unless you incressed your voltage by 2 volts per plate ) however if it were wired like the randy cell then yes you are correct in what you say

[Bob]

NumberoneKiwi :
 Believe me I know what you are saying, but in my experiments it shows me that it doesn't work out that way....
 Your right that all my electricity and electronics training in school told me that the amps would stay the same through the circuit.... but that only works if you have a "NON Reactive load".... a Reactive load is much diferent in how it works.
consider 4 motors connected in series each motor is a 1 amp motor they work on 12vdc/1 amp draw.
 if we put these motors in series and feed it 4x12=48vdc at 1 amp.... what your saying is they should run fine... but in reality none of them would work at all because they are Reactive.... they use up power in themselves so although the first motor in line might try to turn the drag of the others in line would lower its power to a point of not turning at all....
in order to get these 4 motors to turn at their proper RPM you would have to feed it 48vdc at 4 amps then they would work...all of them would turn (in theory!)
this is because in series the voltage is devided among the elements AND so is the amperage
if the elements are a Reactive Load.
...
Lightbulbs are the same, they are reactive as well.... 4 12vdc bulbs in series  would need 48 volts in order to each their correct brightness, but we tend to forget about how much amperage is being used when playing with lightbulbs because they use so little...
but if you fed the string of lights with enough amps for only one bulb they all would barely glow at all...
 Amperage is the Pushing power of the voltage FLOW... if there is not enough amps to push it through the first lightbulb or the second or the 3rd none of them will work very good at all because they are all hooked togather !
....
Your Hydroxy cell is the same way , it's plates are reactive, each plate uses up power just like a motor or a lightbulb. as the Voltage travels through the series cell it is devided among all the plates sense the 101 plate cell was designed for 120 vac to begin with Bob boyce realised that he needed more voltage so he switched to a 220vac inverter
giving as you said about 2vac per cell plate he then rectified it to DC and had 2vdc per plate... however I don't believe he ever said how many amps he used but it must have been a hudge amount because every plate in the system is reactive and useing power so ALL the plate area needs to be accounted for and at 144sqr in each plate x 101 plates is a bunch of plate area....14544sqr inches... if he had cept the 0.36amps per sqr.in. as I stated before , he would have needed 0.36x 14544=5235 amps....( which obviously he didn't do !)
if he had done that his output would have been 0.036 per sqr in or .03636x14544=528.81LPM
but he only got something like 54LPM because his amperage was so low PER SQUARE INCH OF PLATE AREA..
 he had close to 1485 amps as close as I can figure, and that gave him only 0.12 amps per sqr inch... which is barely enough to make it produce ... but it did.
.......
this is actually good news to those of us that are trying to make a cell to produce 25 to 30LPM.... we don't need to go as big as that 101 plate cell... in fact, its way too big!
...
 
Now You should realise, that I don't know all this for a fact.... I am speculateing on what I know, but the numbers seam to fit so thats close enough for me !
...
You need to realise that in a series hookup where things consume power the amps are used up
and it cannot stay the same as it passes along through the curcuit the amperage drops at every element just as the voltage does because its being used up to make hydroxy gas and heat... when work is done heat is the result and you cannot get that power back because its  changed form, that form it changed into is Hydroxy gas and heat... and if each plate is produceing in the cell each plate is takeing away from the initial power that came into the cell in the first place.... till there is nothing left .
...
does that make sense to you ?
Bob.........

 


 

[Manta]

Bob,

You been on the Xmas moonshine ?

Re,...Lightbulbs are the same, they are reactive as well...

Light bulbs are resistive loads.  simply bits of tungsten wire in a vacuum. And here,... Amperage is the Pushing power of the voltage FLOW.... Sorry,  wrong way around.  Remember that an old name for voltage is EMF,  electro motive force. The voltage is the force and the amperage is the quantity
.  Before anyone picks me up on this,  I do know that the proper way to describe quantity is in Coulombs,  but we don't usually need the time aspect.

Re,....but if you fed the string of lights with enough amps for only one bulb they all would barely glow at all..
You can't feed a circuit amps.  The current passing through it will depend upon the resistance in the circuit and the voltage applied to it.

Time to put down that jar and hit the black coffee.

Numberonekiwi.
if you are already in 2009,  whats it like ?

Manta

[scratch1676]

Manta,  how do you think Bob get up the nerve to sit below a propeller spinning at high rpm?  Why do you think he lives in the mountains?  I swore I seen a moonshine rig in the background of some of his pics.  LOL   Just kidding Bob.  I do love to joke around alot.  You ought to see what we do to each other out at work.  You would laugh so hard you would wet yourself.   I aint going to get into the details but picture the smell of a real skunk in the air and then picture it being dark outside and then picture a stuffed animal that looks like a skunk on a long skinny stick being run out of the bushes at the poor coworker that happens to being walking up to my shop at work.  he  he  Grown men do scream like girls.

[numberonekiwi]

Ok Bob I dont really know about current passing through an inductive load, but as for light bulbs ( resistors ) a 12 V 12 W light would draw 1 A to fully illuminate if we had 4 in series it would require 48 V of voltage and would give you 48 W of light which is still only 1 A - Inductors I will pass on

Manta been 2009 here for a little more than 8 hours had to work it until 7AM was the busiest night ever I work in a shell station ( well I did this was my last night of work there jumping the fence to work for BP ) but 2009 is good so far it may even be the year we get 100% hydroxy for our cars

HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE

[Bob]

Ok , OK I regress Manta is right , so is Kiwi... I got me bulbs turned around!
and Manta is also right on the PUSH it is the voltage that does the pushing not the amps
the amps is the VOLUME ...think of it as a water hose  20 PSI on a 1/2" hose squirts water a long way...
20 psi on a 3ft diamator hose isn't going to go very far out ...lots of volume though
the volume can be compaired to amperage !
....
thank you for takeing me back to school again Manta... I need that Allot ! <GRIN>
...
Resistive loads are diferent than Reactive loads this is also very true so my anology sux !
....
but I THINK the idea of 3 motors in series explains it best anyway....
getting them all to spin at the proper given RPM would take increaseing the Amperage
and voltage BOTH.... Correct ?
...
( now that I got your attention.... that is realy the true question here.)
although you could argue that the plates in a hydroxy cell are Resistive and not reactive,
I would balk at that, because Reactive needs capasitance to change the EMF going through it and these plates have those properties ... YES ?
so... they are reactive and act just like electric motors do when hooked in series !
thats all I am saying ....
Now... is that right or wrong ?
... and no you didn't see my still, its better hidden than that !!!!!!
HAHAHAHAH
Bob.......

[Bob]

HAHAH Scratch I could just see that ! Should'a used a big stuffed bear though and made grunting sounds... that would definately get their attention !
...
Skunks ... I doubt I'ed have batted an eye...I feed the little varments cat food all the time!... I stepped out one evening to feed the critters and almost stepped on Momm'a Skunk that had 4 little ones with her ( they were further away though luckilly!)
and there I am standing with a big pot full of cat food fer them and I was not fast enough
Momma skink turned around and looked at me and then waddled off as if to say well, what took you so long !
... I've been spreyed a few times mostly because I was trying to catch the dog every time
its like "NO, NO DUMMIE thats a SKUNK ! you don't wann'a chase that !"  but vinegar in a sprey bottle cures the skunk smell in short order... hard on doggy noses though ! but believe me they welcome the vinegar ! waaaah thats bad stuff !
 between the skunks and racoons theres barely enough left for the stray cats ! HAHAHAHA
nuttin cuiter than a Momm'a skunk leading 7 babies to the cat feeder though I must admit !
...might bit smelly if someone makes her mad though, but I can walk right by her or her kids and only get "Stomped" at.......
we had a skunk fight under the house about 2 years ago... man that was bad !
after a while ya don't smell it though ! and your eyes quit watering... and the head ache goes away... happened in wintertime with all the windows taped off so we left both doors open half the night ! ... silly things, but even at that I'ed rather have them as neighbors than Humans !  HAHAHAHAH ... what me anti social ? HEHEHEH
Bob.....

[Painless]

If the goal here is to achieve a higher voltage, would not a coil similar to an ignition coil provide the needed volts at a much lower cost?  You would need to pulse the output, but this should be possible at a high rate comparable to a PWM.

[Bob]

An ignition coil would not handle the amps needed but you could wind your own coil around an iron core and achieve the same results i suppose...
 but as you said you would have to pulse it with a coil, make and break the contact in order to achieve the real high voltage
... I was mainly thinking of things like 101 plates and how to feed that many plates with only 12 vdc.... or even 50 plates in series would be very hard to get the needed voltage to each plate without useing some sort of voltage raising do-hicky !
<GRIN>
.... so I wasn't thinking 150,000v but mearly something like 24 or 48vdc and useing stright DC you may well have truble doing that ....
I was exploreing the verious ways it is possable, converting to AC and then useing a transformer is one way, but it is very expensive and hard to construct...
there has to be a better way !...
I know you could convert the truck to 24vdc and have 2 batteries and a new altenator
but thats probly even more expensive than the first option....
any one got any better ideas on how to get 24 vdc out of 12 or even 48vdc out of 12vdc?
I think as we get into bigger cells this will be nessarry !
...
Bob......

[numberonekiwi]

Bob 24 volts may be easy alot of trucks run 24V ( big rigs ) but usually use 2 x 12 volt batteries, so they may well have a 24 V alternator most of the electrics are also 24 volt including radio lights etc

As for 48 V electric forklift comes to mind but they dont have alternators and there cells 24 x 2V are horendously expensive for us hobiests not sure what a charger for them costs

[scratch1676]

you can go with golf cart stuff should be able to get some used stuff fairly cheap.

[Manta]

scratch,
You know why they call the nut that holds the rotor in place 'the Jesus Nut' ?  If it fails then Jesus is the next person you will be talking to.  I always fancied running a gyro.  But over here everything is tied up with red tape.  I do have a few hours towards my PPL on a Cessna 150,  but no chance of getting the license now. Aeroplanes go through your money faster than women. not much faster though.
As for Bob's stil, I thought everyone in the mountains had one,  and played the banjo.

Bob,
Next time your back in school,  if you look toward the back row you may see someone trying to hide behind his books.  Guess who.
The plates in a cell do indeed have capacitance.  After all,  a capacitor is just metal plates with a dielectric between. The electrolyte does a similar,  but not quite the same, thing in that the idea of the dielectric is to act as an insulator that prevents the flow of current whilst a electrolite is to promote the flow of current.
What is interesting is how the plates hold a charge after the power is removed.  As i mentioned before,  I reckon that the nickel in the ss is causing the cell to work as a weak battery.  Still rather mysterious though.  Any chemists/phyisists out there ?

There seems to be a certain Frankenstein aspect to using more and more current to get the gas,  Somehow I feel that it shouldn't be neccessary ;  but I can't think why.

manta