LtCFisher's Cell

[Bob]

There is a bunch of people asking me questions about LtCFishers cell, the tube cell that he made that worked so well, and Unfortionately I am at just as big a loss to explain it myself
simply because I don't have enough information on what it was that he made <GRIN>
 With LtCFisher here with us perhaps we can discover what makes his cell work so well
Personally I think its the Power that he was useing to run the cell... but thats just my opinion... I don't know that for a fact...
However This man has been constantly experimenting while the rest of us just type so give him a break and the benifit of the doubt.... before you deside that "there ain't no way!"
 He has presented on the other forum pictures and schmatics and is no doubt a asset to us in our search for knowledge about this stuff...
Here is a Pic of My first...and last Tube cell...so you can see why it didn't work very well at all ! <GRINI>
Bob......


 

[Manta]

LtFisher,

If you are reading this,  it would be a great help were you to also copy the info you posted over on the generator site here.

Manta

[Manta]

Bob,

If he would post more info then maybe we could get to the bottom of the massive power draw that fried his supply.

Could you point me to the wiring diagrams.

Manta

[Bob]

Havn't been there in a week...sorry I got my hands full here its under the thred "Makeing too much Hydrogen" I think... but not positive.
Bob.........

[LTCFISHER]

Hello, everyone.

Thanks Bob for the support.
I will be posting here, the power supply I was using was one I built. The drawing is posted on you tube and was sent to all that requested it. It the power supply was a unfiltered dc voltage with 2 braking resistors. I think I can walk you through it. The Design: input was to a variable transformer (0-120 volt) output was to 2 stacked 40 full bridged rectifiers, from there plus went to the resistor bank and negative went to it's output terminal. After that it was connected to the tube cell plus to plus, neg. to neg.. The tubes where stainless steel set at .125" clearance. You allready know the tubes were perforated .250" dia.. postive side was a .500" sst strap, neg. side 1/4-20 sst. allthread rod attached to the bottom of the neg. tube by means of a 1/2" round bar centered in the tube and welded in place with silver. All my sst. welding is done this way using 15-35% silver, no oxidation and not responsive to tempature changes. I will start building the next generation cell some time after the holidays as my wife is using up the funds faster then me. LOL. I was going to try a half wave power source un filtered similar to a battery charger design I have some old 100amp diodes laying arround and they are eager to go to work. LOL. The other project I am working on is to split the DC power source into 3 (yes 3) different positive legs and a common negative from one power source. Making one pos. leg half wave and the other two full. I think this will boost gass productio to new levels.           (old man rambling again)

Great to hear from you again.
LtCFisher

[Bob]

Ahhh Kool Thanks LTCFISHER !
good to see ya made it over here
...
I tried to post a pic of yours here only do discover the pictures were HUDGE ! I mean like WALL PAPER size ! 2280x2010 or something like that...so I re-sampled it and made it smaller 800x600 pixels in size ....
so here it is ...
Bob...

[Bob]

I'ed realy like to see the bottom of that cell Fisher....
do you have a pic of it laying down ?
...
I set this forum to handle a single 1024x768 picture in size ( thats big) but I figure most people will post 800x600 pictures so I think you can post 2 or 3 of them at a single post.
if you have truble re-scaleing the pictures just email them to me the way they are and I'll re-sample them to 800x600 for you and post them...
I use Corell draw to re sample the pictures, there are all kinds of utility programs out there to change the size of the photo's ...
but it realy makes sense to change the settings in the CAMARA first !!!!!!  you realy don't need pictures that big... I set my camara to 1024x768 and it works great for me , plunty of detail and not so big as to eat up the camara's memory.... I can get 32 pics in my camara by useing that setting,.... many more if I set it to 800x600 but the resoultion dropps off a bit!
...
Hope that helps... the camara can make the pictures the right size for you if you set it for it!
...how you do that is diferent with each camara ! HAHAHAHA !
good luck on that !
...
hope that helps !
Bob.........

[Bob]

LTCFISHER: Do you have a Pic of your 30 switch plate design ?
I'ed realy like to see that thing... I have a gutt feeling thats the one that will get us 10 to 15 LPM
without too much truble.
and it should be fairly small in size makeing it fit-able under the hood !
...
Thank ya !
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

LtCFisher,
re,
...The other project I am working on is to split the DC power source into 3 (yes 3) different positive legs and a common negative from one power source. Making one pos. leg half wave and the other two full. I think this will boost gass productio to new levels....

Can't get my head around this one.  How do you propose connecting this to your hydroxy cell >

A quick diagram would help a lot.

Manta

P.S.  I'm ex radio ham and also (dropped -out) ex electronic degree course student (years ago) ,  So don't worry about using tech terms on me.

[oldntrd]

I am a newby to all this so do not take any of my input as hard fact, just uninformed obervations.

I have built a close version of the Fisher cell and am in the process of seasoning it now. I have seen a few plate designs so I have a little info for comparison. The Fisher tube design is producing more gas than any plate design I have seen. I am only putting 2 to 3 amps into it and getting a fair amount of gas (have not measured it yet). I get a very small amount of gas with straight distilled water and it only takes a pinch of sodium hydroxide to get the amps up to 3. I have this in a 4" X 11" pvc pipe  and with a dip of sodium hydroxide the size of a kitchen match head I will get 8 amps and a very noticeable increase in gas.
All of this is powered by a 6 amp battery charger. I am noticing that if I go more than 3 amps I start getting heat and building the black stuff on the negative side.

As I said above this is new to me but from what I have read I believe I am putting way too many volts into it so I am looking into a way to lower the voltage and at the same time trying to figure the best way to add more cells which I believe will use the excess voltage and increase production.

This is addicting and in some ways as frustrating as raising kids.

Any suggestions will be appreciated,

R

[Manta]

oldntrd,

Sounds promising.  So your not using any resonant devices,  just straight DC ?

Can you give me more exact dimensions.  I need to build this as an exact replica of yours to compare results.

I have just started doing some very basic tests on plate designs  See my posts.

re,
...Any suggestions will be appreciated,...

Just one,  measure the gas.


Manta

[Bob]

Yes sounds incurrageing indeed !
but without a good measurement we have nothing gained but it makes bubbles ! HAHAHAHAH
...
get away from the Sodium ! thats what is giveing you the black stuff.... you are trying to make a ton of green goo... but trying not to make it by not useing the amps.... HEHEHEHE your fighting yourself
use lemonaid Koolaid!
...
can you please post your Dimentions of the cell???
PURDY PLEASE <GRIN> ehheheheheh
...
Bob...
 

[Bob]

As far as the voltage goes according to what I have read "a Cell only needs 1.25 vdc to operate and all the rest of the voltage goes to make heat",
 ( Personally I doubt the last part of that but thats besides the point!)
so yes if your useing 12vdc then you have more voltage than you need... but so do we ALL
and its not that big of a deal.... as it will operate on that voltage for quite some time before getting too hot....or SHOULD ! <GRIN>
...
from the sounds of things LTCFisher made his plate spaceing very close for a tube cell...
and from my experience close plates mean better output !
...
I can't wait to get more info on this cell ... its realy got me thinking ! HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.......

[oldntrd]

You are right on the black goo. My wife went to the store today and I asked her to pick up some lemon kool aid without sugar but she said all they had was with sugar or substitude so she did not get any. Will the one with sugar work?

I do not have the specks on my cell with me but I can remember most of them. They came from the other site and were posted by LTC Fisher. I think the only change was the ss and that was because I just happened to have a piece laying around and I was itching to get started learning the basics.

Metal is 304 perforated ss, 1/16" perforations, 0.033 or 0.035 thick from McMaster Carr

Both tubes are 7.25" tall

Material was cut: inner, 7 1/4" X 7 5/8" 
                        outer, 7 1/4" X 8 5/8"

Joints were butt soldered with silver soldered  *I do not like this and if I do it again I am going to do a 1/8" lap joint

The finished inner tube will be 2.4? dia and I cannot remember the finished dia for the outer. The gap will be a little less than 5/32"

I have a "U" shaped piece of ss slipped up inside the inner tube from the bottom and silvered to the insides of the tube. This is drilled at the center of the base of the "U" and the all thread rod shown in the picture is inserted in this and double nutted to it. The upper end of the rod just goes up, makes a 90 and out the side of the pvc.

The outer has a ss strap silvered to the outside of it near the base and runs upward to about 1 1/2" higher than the tubes where a bolt is silvered to it and the bolt goes outside thru the pvc.

I do intend to get some measurements very soon but right now I am trying to get thru the black goo stage and I cannot find my pipe tap so I can instal the fittings and screw on the cap. I tried two stores and ran out of time to look further.

My results so far are not anywhere near those LTC Fisher got but still better than any of the few I have seen. It is running 24/7 now at 3 to 4 amps and I dump and wash once a day. It was about 1 1/2" above the cells when I checked it this morning. My wife called about 2 this afternoon to tell me it was halfway down on the tubes so it used roughly a quart of water in about 8 hours at a little less than 4 amps.

At this point I am impressed but not real impressed. It is going to take more. As soon as I get the bugs out of the basics I will add a pwm and ?

 

 

[Bob]

Oldntrd:

You realy Need KOH with that cell.... and I doubt that Lemonaid Koolaid (Unsweetened!) will do ya
(never use the sweetened stuff !)
...
you can try Vinegar if you've no KOH or lemonaid... its not very strong though...
...
thank you for the explination and dimentions I appreaciate it very much....
I think I remember Fisher saying his Tubes were closer togater than 5/32" but not positive
and that could change the output a great deal.
....
if your going through water that fast it must realy be bubbleing like crazy ! I could run my bank of 3 Randy cells all day and use only 2 cups of water at the most ! HAHAHAHHA
....
so basically, you rolled your own tubes, got a close fit and soldered them up and thats what ya got !
...I sure wish you had some LPM measurements for us ....
hehehehe
Bob....

[oldntrd]

Bob,

I checked my notes and Fisher did recommend less gap. He recommended 5/64" with some notes on max and min. This was my first try so part of my wide gap was deliberate for safety. Getting these plates bent perfectly round was difficult then with the warp from the heat of the silver soldering made it worse. Fisher recommended using 1/16" material, I used .035 just because I already had it.

Thanks for the info on the kool aid.

R

[Manta]

oldntrd,

Thanks for the info.  Now we have something to go on.
Someone did publish the amount of hydroxy given per litre of water;  but I can't recall where I saw it.  Anyone remember ?

It just dawned on me that at the beginning of LtCFisher's posts he was talking about resonance.  This implies that he must have been using an AC system,  not a DC system.  DC systems don't resonate.

Manta

[Bob]

Ummmm... isn't 0.125  1/8" ?   thats the gap He used...he just said so or as close to it as you can get
.....
Your correct rolling your own tubes and getting them perfectly round ain't as easy as it sounds !
on the one I tried to do with realy thin meterial I used 1/16" zip ties laying down on the sheet...
laid the other sheet on it and rolled the 2 up.... well you know what happened, the zip ties fell out in some spots and stayed in others but the idea was a good one to maintain spaceing.....
 I think if a person made a tube as round as possable then made another sheet a bit longer so you could
over lap the ends and rolled it around the other tube and then put hose clamps on both ends you could get the uniform fit your after..... I think.... useing the zip ties in there to keep the distance proper
or even a sheet of cork gasket meterial or 2 layers of cerial box cardboard.... something to keep it uniform then use the clamps, then tack the seam and playhell getting the stuff out but when ya did you'ed have a good tight fit !
....
 that MIGHT work eh ?
...
Bob........

[numberonekiwi]

oldntrd,

Thanks for the info.  Now we have something to go on.
Someone did publish the amount of hydroxy given per litre of water;  but I can't recall where I saw it.  Anyone remember ?



Manta

I am not sure exactly myself but I think it is in the region of 1800 liters of gas for 1 liter if water give or take 10 %

[Bob]

so does that mean 2liters of water used made 2x1800=3600liters in a 8hr period 8hrs is 60x8=480 minutes... 3600/480= 7.5LPM  if none of that is steam which is highly unlikely but still very good output if our guess is correct eh ?
...
Bob.......

[oldntrd]

Morning,

The generator full holds about 1/2 gallon and it used a little shy of 1/2 of that in about 8 hrs so output was probably about 3 L. Just guessing from the bubbles I think this is probably close.

I have a new problem now maybe you know something about. I have been trying to season the tubes and have been getting the black stuff every day when I change the water. The amount has been going down daily but still there. I was hoping by this week-end it would be gone so I could get some output measurements and work on installation until last nites new problem.

When I got home yesterday afternoon my generator was full of some dark red orange liquid. I shut it down, flushed, rinsed and refilled. I brought it up to 4 amps and left it for a couple of hours. When I checked it again it was doing it again so I flushed etc again. I left it run for about 2 more hours and when I checked it it was full of the red/orange stuff again. I shut it down. Output seems allright but something is suddenly bad wrong and it was doing good.  Anybody have any ideas?

R

[candyman55]

You either got copper or Iron in it.

[Bob]

Did you change your Electrolite ? that is what I got with stright SALT !
Baking soda gave me a green goo about the same consistancy as the salt but a diferent color.
...
KOH gave me none of the above ..."ONCE I got the plates clean and leached out!"
but till then I got green goo that slowly went away... after about 20 flushings..
Vinegar helped clean it up by the way...
but I think the Muratic Acid is a better cleaner.
sounds like maybe your water or electrolite has changed. check close on the Electrolite might be diferent than what ya think it is !
...
Goodluck ! getting rid of the goo is a tough battle, that is why I finally gave up and went with Randy's sudjestion and used Lemonaid... No goo ...at all !
...
Bob........

[Justin Frye]

im just curious randy but how in the world did you ever come up with lemon koolaid unsweetened?





-justin

[hydrotinkerer]

Morning,

The generator full holds about 1/2 gallon and it used a little shy of 1/2 of that in about 8 hrs so output was probably about 3 L. Just guessing from the bubbles I think this is probably close.

I have a new problem now maybe you know something about. I have been trying to season the tubes and have been getting the black stuff every day when I change the water. The amount has been going down daily but still there. I was hoping by this week-end it would be gone so I could get some output measurements and work on installation until last nites new problem.

When I got home yesterday afternoon my generator was full of some dark red orange liquid. I shut it down, flushed, rinsed and refilled. I brought it up to 4 amps and left it for a couple of hours. When I checked it again it was doing it again so I flushed etc again. I left it run for about 2 more hours and when I checked it it was full of the red/orange stuff again. I shut it down. Output seems allright but something is suddenly bad wrong and it was doing good.  Anybody have any ideas?

R

Do you have any idea what the temp was? If I missed it somewhere what grade ss? Does the red stuff settle to the bottom?

[randy]

I read it on a thingy called the internet, seems the military was using hydroxy to maximize mileage on some vehicles, they apparently tried everything and found Koolaid to work the best, I've been looking for the site that I read it on but haven't found it again yet.

[Bob]

I berlieve that was back durring the 2nd world war, and thats funny because the Public has been Hoodwinked into believeing it doesn't work, yet our very goverment used it when things got tough durring the war ! ... go figure !
...
Bob.......

[oldntrd]

Hydrotinkerer,

I did not check the temp but it was warm. I will guess in the mid to high 80's. Some of the red stuff floated and a lot settled to the bottom.
 
I cannot understand why initially I got what appeared to be red and black stuff and after a few days subsided to a lessening amount of only black crud as I flushed and changed electrolite daily then the red orange stuff started coming out-lots of it.

Last night I acid cleaned, flushed, refilled and set amps at 4 and watched the red crud come out. Being basically lazy and naturally looking for the easy way I decided to crank the amps up to 7 and fill it till it overflowed the red crud over the side. I did this with over a gallon of water then it stayed clear the rest of the night. This morning it was still clear but I did the flush and fill thing anyway. The bottom was full of the red crud. I refilled it and set the amps at 7. Will check it this evening .

R

[Bob]

Oldntired: <GRIN>
 My guess is you finally got down to the metal the other day and it started leaching out the impurities of the metal... it will probably do that for a few flushings and then go away... I HOPE
once all the metal is leached out you can call the cell properly conditioned ! HAHAHAHHAHA
...
...I used the fill it to the top and let the green goo run out over the top a few times and it helped a great deal... but it still needs flushed well.it took about 3 days of flushing it and changeing the electrolite each time before it let up and stayed half way clean...
...
I have found lately that heat realy effects the electrolite in a bad way....
when I had the 3 cells in series the heat was very low.... and the electrolite stayed clean all the time
 when I changed to parallel theheat went way up and the electrolite won't stay clean now... even the lemonaid is turning brown....
any ideas ?
...
Bob....

[oldntrd]

I have given this lots of thought too and the only thing I can think of is when it appears you have got it all, warm it up and start over again. I guess keep this up until you have reached a never exceed temp. If it works maybe just start out high.

I am a Newby and do not have anything solid to go on so I am going to try it. The other thing I am going to try is to put a drain cock in the very bottom of my electrolite container. Hopefully with this I can overflow the crud on top and drain the stuff on the bottom thus avoiding the dump, flush, rinse and adjust amps ritual. I am even thinking about how a drain cock at the top electrolite level would work.

R

What do you know about using graphite. I am seeing a little info on that but have not checked into it?

[candyman55]

I am sure that you can use graphite to produce HHO, but I don't think it will work very well the way we are doing it. I have built a couple of graphite cells and it seems to deteriorate quite quickly. It is capable of making a lot of gas. Regardless of what they say unless you are using milivolts it still gets hot.

[Bob]

I know nothing about graphite ! other than it has allot of carbon in it, and carbon is one of the things that leach out into the water... as well as iron, copper and everything else that can leach will get into the water...
the question is ...is why does it leach out in the first place ? its metal not water saulable clay
it shouldn't leach out anything  according to my mind ! LOL !
Bob....

[LTCFISHER]

Bob, and all those who want to see it, I posted the pictures of the plate cell in the post pictures here.
You will find them right after Bob's.

ltcf

[candyman55]

Thanks, I seen those they are very impressive.  I have 14 or 15 plates already as soon as I can acquire the materials I gotta try to build one.

[LTCFISHER]

I found them at LOWES they are the cheapest.
( REMEMBER TO REMOVE THE PROTECTIVE COATING FROM THE FACE OF THE PLATE)  or they won't work.

[Bob]

HAHAHA you got that right Fisher I had to dissesemble my smack booster when I discovered the plastic scratch cover on them heheheheheh then take off the plastic film and scratch up each plate with sandpaper and then re-assemble ... what a diference in the output ! ... from nothing to almost 2.5LPM!
...  it was one of thoes "DUH NO WONDER" Moments!  HAHAHHAHAHAH
....
Bob.......

[charley]

Your cell looks really nice.  Great job Fisher!  Glad you're sharing what you've come up with here.  It's also nice to see that nobody is putting down your accomplishments with your cells.  Just because nobody else is getting the results you are doesn't mean you're not.  Keep up the good work!

Charley

[Manta]

Hydrotinkerer,
Just an observation. I am getting a re/orange stuff dropping out as well. But only from the cell that has KOH in it.  Nothing (yet) seen in the cell that has only water in it.
My plates are 304 SS.

Manta

[hydrotinkerer]

Manta,
Could you take some of the "stuff" out of your setup and dry it out and see if it is conductive? How hot is this setup getting? How many amps?

[hydrotinkerer]

Hey so I can keep track of the "red, iron, orange stuff" will you guys post it here?   http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,47.0.html

I'm trying to figure out where it is coming from and why some make it and some don't. Don't want to corrupt Lt's thread.

[Manta]

Hydrotinkerer,
The above doesn't work as a link.  Maybe you could just start another thread titled 'red stuff etc' or something similar just for discussion on this subject.

I think I'll filter and dry the stuff and take it to the chem' lab at work.  See what they make of it.  I'll report back on this.
By the way,  this morning I find that it is also dropping out of the plain tap water cell.  But not as much as the KOH cell.
Manta

[LTCFISHER]

THE RED STUFF:
I believe it is the minerals that are traped in the water (iron, sulphur, etc), this is stuff you would normally drink in a glass of water. Now that we are compressing the water in the cell with electrons and extruding the HO the minerials seperated from the reaction collect making them visible to the naked eye, the iron would be the red. The KOH in combination with the electrons is causing the iron to rust at a elevated rate. Hence the word ( IRON OXIDE ).

I would like to hear the results from the LAB, I hope you can post those results here for us to see.

[candyman55]

I believe you are right, I use only rain water with KOH and don't have any red stuff.

[LTCFISHER]

I use Lime-Away to clean my cell it seems to take all the red out lol.
That stuff will stain a good shop rag.

[hydrotinkerer]

Manta,
 There is a thread called "Iron bloom(red stuff)" in building hydroxy generators section.

I thought distilled water didn't have the minerals other water has? I have been using distilled and used to get red stuff. I wanted to know if the red stuff is conductive.

[Bob]

Distilled water is one thing, Distilled AND De-mineralized water is another  I use the de Mineralized stuff and havn't had much of a problem... just rust from my steel washers in the cell (OOPS)
.... However I used to use the Creek water and I got all kinds of colors from it.... grom green goo one day to red goo the next ! HAHAHAHA
.... after a rain the creek water is usually sort'a muddy anyway... that could be why <GRIN>
...
so I listened to Randy and got store bought water that was Distilled and De-Mineralized
and it has helped a bunch!
...
Bob...

[LTCFISHER]

Today's Report:

VOLTAGE:
After carefully going over all my notes I see that it is necessary to maintain a constant 13.6 Neg., volts to the anode in the cell. The reason for the high end voltage is that the Hydrogen releases faster and the amount is proportionate  to the temperature of the cell, so some heat is required to free the hydrogen cells.

HEAT:
Now that we have produced the gas it is expelled at the same temperature as that of the cell which makes it easier to collect outside influence (air/hydrocarbons,etc.) this process has a decaying effect on the present gas state, which is HEATED. Heat is good for producing the gas easier but detrimental to its purity.

COOLING:
By cooling the gas to a much lower temperature before storage the HO is in a pre-compressed state or very stable state, There are several ways to reduce or bring the temperature down by sending it through a vacuum or the simplest way send it through a orfice. Ever feel the air coming out of a tire in the summer when the tire is hot,
same deal. This approach reduces abient change, a positive pressure can not back fire.

Gas to Liquid:
Gas P.S.I. and Volume is equal to the amount or force producing the gas in relation to temperature. (Please note: Different materials used to produce a gas act differently in relation to pressure.)
The best way to turn the hot gas into a liquid would be through a orfice into a vacuum this will cause the gas to condense or liquify inside the vacuum. The amount of gas requirred is greater then the amount of liquid recieved but will carry the same volital influence. (Please Note: A vacuum must be pulled on the storrage tank to evacuatate any outside influnces as well as purifying the tank to store the liquid.) To keep it in a liquid/gas state the storage vessel must be also inside a vacuum, like a Thermos bottle design.

FOOD FOR THOUGHT.

[Manta]

The best way to turn the hot gas into a liquid would be through a orfice into a vacuum...

Not so.  In refrigeration units you turn a hot gas to a liquid by cooling it under pressure.  To get the refrigeration effect you inject the liquid ito a lower pressure area via a small orifice.  the resultant pressure drop causes temperature drop.

manta

[Bob]

I think thats what he just said Manta !<Grin>
...
I don't think that the hydroxy gas is so hot as to become a problem though....
as long as its not super heated...who cares how hot it is?
...
Bob........

[randy]

I'm kinda wondering what's gonna happen when a tank of hydrogen runs out, will there be a low pressuer flashback?

[Bob]

Yah Probably Randy so some sort of lo pressure cut off valve will be needed or your tank will blow up ! <GRIN>
...
Bob

[candyman55]

Just like the generators, you better have a bubbler in line to the engine or anything else you are trying to run on Hydrogen. I figure a propane tank explosion would make a bubbler or generator explosion look like a sparrow fart.

[Manta]

Bob,
Actually no,  he didn't.

He wrote,

....The best way to turn the hot gas into a liquid would be through a orfice into a vacuum this will cause the gas to condense or liquify inside the vacuum....

I wrote,

...Not so.  In refrigeration units you turn a hot gas to a liquid by cooling it under pressure...

If you re-read it you'll see he has it the wrong way around.  believe me on this one,  I spent five of the last ten years working as a maintenace fitter at a frozen food factory.  Lots of refrigeration plant there.

 

Manta

[Bob]

Ahh ok fair enough Manta !
thanks for the help
...but I realy don't think I'll be running refrigeration cooling lines around my cell any time soon ! ... heheheheheh
Bob.........

[LTCFISHER]

Manta,

You are correct with the refrigeration, a liquid  that is under pressure is injected through a orfice in a gas state causing a cooling affect, after being spent (supper heated) it is then returned to the coils to be turned back into a liquid state and the cylce is started over. (closed loop system)

With a Hydro cell the gas is allready super heated (non liquid state) it is under some amount of pressure, if it is ex-spelled through a orfice ( presure drop in therms acures) into a vacuum it will condense into a liquid not much but a liquid no doubt, to keep it in this present state it must be contained inside a vacuum encase chamber a 2 wall cylinder (like a thermos bottle) to inhance the system and to maintain the liquid state the unit must be kept in a refrigerated ambient condition as hydrogen boils at  -257c. you can achieve this condition only one way, produce enough hydrogen in a well insulated tank (about 8 inch's of foam) now this part may seam wierd but it works, A tank say half filled with liquid hydrogen has to be pressurized to 70 PSI by using the liquid (NOT AIR) and heating it and sending it back into the same tank on top of the liquid. This is call a self contained system. Any hydrogen used from the tank must come from the top or gas area of the tank. The heating unit is called a vaporizer. The stattic presure if I am correct is around 70psi to maintain a equal balance of liquid and gas @ -257C. You have to produce it in a refrigerated vacuum then pump the liquid into your insulated storrage tank and maintane a constant stable pressure inside the tank to maintain a liquid state. A lot of stuff to make it work I have gotten mine down to -325*F half liquid and half gas, inside the tank is very stable as the vaporizer comes online due to a drop in presure it puts the liquid back into a controlable state. I have had maybe 25 different type tanks all work the same.

[Bob]

OK just for S&G's ...in a refrigerator when the compressor is off
the pressure of the gas is all the same .... correct ?
when the compressor is turned on the vacume on the one side of the small orface is created
sucking in the freon... this is a small state of vacume and it takes a while till the compressor can build up enough vacume to realy work good... the freon that the compressor sucks up is then compressed and pushed into the coil lines that are air cooled at the back of the refrigerator...to cool down some...
...
from there I dunno where they go... which side is cold and all that....
I have assumed all my life that the side that has the orface in it is the cold side because it is the LOW pressure side... the coils of this tubeing go to cool the refrigerator...
...
on the high pressure side there is a Condencer and cooling coils....

but where do they meet ? are they the same LINE
...
Bob....

[Cowboy]

Maybe I'm just too back woods to know everything, but anytime there is a pressure, isn't there also a vacuum?  Isn't that all pressure is; a negative vacuum?  In the case of pressure relative to outside air...  Assuming a outside atmosphere of 14.7, a pressure of 15 would consider the 14.7 a vacuum.  It all depends on what side of the door your looking at.

[Manta]

Bob,  I'll add a sketch later,  But for now here is how it works as a system.

Starting at the compressor,  gas is pumped up to pressure and becomes hot in the process.  It passes into the condenser which can be regarded much like a car radiator.  Air is forced through the condenser grills cooling the gas and,  as it is still under pressure,  it turns into liquid..  This liquid collects at the bottom in a tank known as the receiver. From the receiver it goes via a smallish bore pipe,  as a liquid,  still under the same pressure,  to the evaporator unit.  This is just another radiator. But,  as the liquid enters the radiator it is forced through very small nozzles into a spray.
Now it the tricky bit to visualise.  The other side of this evaporator is connected to the input (low pressure) side off the compressor. This is sucking on the evaporator and creating a partial vacuum.  The sprayed liquid  turns back into gas in the evaporator and cools everything at the same time.
The gas then goes through the compressor and starts its next trip around.

On a car the evaporator is the bit that gives out the cold air and the condenser is the radiator thing at the front that cools the hot gas.

So to answer your question,  the system meets itself back at the compressor..

Hope that helps.

Manta

[LTCFISHER]

I could not of said it any better. Well defined.

[Bob]

YAh ! that helps a bunch !
thank ya !

Bob........

[LTCFISHER]

Ok Bob,
I'm have'n a bad day.

I have looked all over for your info. on the amount of gas required for my engine.

This is what I have so far: Bore x Bore x Stroke X .7854 X (Number of Cylinders) = Total Volume

                                       ACT: 3.78 x 3.78 x 3.13 x .7854 x 4 = 140.5008 X .016387064 = 2.3 Liter Engine

                                        2.3 / 4 = 0.5750. A little over a 1/2 liter per cylinder per stroke.

                                        Compression Ratio = 9.2:1

Ok now what am I missing? , How much Hyro do I need.

[Cowboy]

Mas, you took the long way of doing that...

Pie x Bore x Stroke x no. cyl. = displacement


Curious as to how you came up with your figures though.  I'm interested in learning new ways of doing this.


But, displacement still isn't how you need to calculate hydroxy needed.  I'm not too sure if there's going to be a hard equation.  Too many variables.  Total volume, stroke compared to bore, no. cyl., differential gearing, transmission gearing, tire size, power-to-weight ratio...  The best I can give is to shoot high and adjust as needed.  Your your little guy, try 6 lpm for idle.  Get 6 lpm going, then pull the injector fuse. 

[Manta]

Wow !  That's so much easier using the Metric system.   

Manta

[Bob]

LTCFisher:
  THe reason you cannot find  "how I figure how much Hydroxy gas I need" is because there isn't one ... Like Cowboy pointed out...too many variables!
... For a sumplemtary system I figure 2LPM per 1Liter of engine displacement...
for going 100% Hydroxy gas its probly at LEAST double that !...perhaps even tripple
...I don't know yet because I have yet to do it !
...sorry !
...
Bob......

[LTCFISHER]

Your right Cowboy I did do it the long way, but I didn't know if any one used pi any more. HA HA!!!

So the guesstamation (new word) is 2LPM to start for every Liter of displacement!

I am going to finish a new cell (tube type) which it should produce an easy 15 to 20 lpm at 13.8 v.dc and 32 amps. targit figures.

[Cowboy]

That will be nice production Fisher.  Keep us up tp date on it.  And yeah, it's Pi, not pie, but pie sounded good at the time.  I missed lunch. 

[Manta]

LtCFisher,

I was wondering why you didn't just divide your engine capacity by four.

Looking forward to seeing the new cell.

Manta

[Manta]

LtCFisher,

Just been re-reading this thread.  I notice that way back,  November 10th,  you wrote...

....I see that it is necessary to maintain a constant 13.6 Neg., volts to the anode in the cell. ...

( my emphasis)

As the Anode in a circuit is Positive,  and the connector to which you connect the positive lead from your battery automaticly becomes the Anode;  why would you want to make this negative ?

Just curious.

Manta

[LTCFISHER]

My mistake on that one, Thanks for pointing that out. Senior momment. LOL