Randy cell, sealed?

[Too Many Secrets]

Wondering if anyone has tried playing with the Randy washer cell... sealed. No drilling, washer hole used for electro in and gas out. 3 bolts on the outside with larger plates on ends. Gaskets between washers, wired +nnnnnn- or whatever # n's is needed.

In a practical way it would be easier to assemble and give a larger surface as there would be no 'waste' from drilled holes.

Just thinking...

[Bob]

HAY Toomanysecrets! thats a fantastic idea ! use a plate meterial that is redially available!
and make a DRY Randy cell !
...
whats more you could group say 4 washers to each layer...though that would make construction
much harder...
or a row of say 6 dry washer cells useing the same plexyglass end plates !
just seperate the washers a few inches appart along a 4"x18" strip of 1/2" plexyglass
and stack them up....
useing each stack as a seperate cell...
I think you'ed just about have to use large 1 7/8" 1/32" O-Rings to seal them ,but
you'ed gain in many ways.... plate spaceing consistancy, no interfearance from leaking
electrons going from one cell to the next in the same bath....
each cell would have an inlet and outlet that are in-line to help pump fresh coolant in
....
I gott'a draw that up and see what it looks like it sounds like a fantastic idea
due to their small size I think a group of 4 to 6 would be needed but that should be no problem sense washers are fairly cheep ! just hook up each cell as a parallel
hookup so each will see 12vdc so the neutral plates work ok... and it should produce quite well
....
I'll draw up a design tonight on that and post it here and see what ya think !
...
great idea though if you can find the O-rings.... if not perhaps hand cut nilon folders there too ?
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

Got to many cells already but sounds like a cool idea. You could also use washers with a smaller center hole.

[Too Many Secrets]

I like the idea of O-rings of proper size. That would make the cell perfectly uniform and quicker to build.

I've been also thinking about the 'bank of cells' idea Bob alludes to above. Been trying to think of a way to have one large plate(Ground) and a way to 'pop' cells in and out for ease of cleaning/replacing. But I don't see how that would work with the washer (thru the center) design.

Looking forward to your drawings Bob.

[Bob]

Ok... here's a pic of the invisioned cell... but as I was drawing I discovered a major FLAW in the idea... I don't know how much it will effect the proformance but amagon it to be noticable!
...
the problem is the washers are orentated horizonally not vertically and the gas bubbles will be trapped
between the plates till they fight their way to the center and excape... this keeps the plates covered in bubbles for an extended period of time and is not good for production as without water on the plates no production will take place...
in normal operation the randy cell can let bubbles escape from both sides and the center
with this setup only the center will alow the gas to excape which means a good portion of the cells are going to be filled with gas most of the time while in operation...
the only cure that I cna see would be a ring of 1/8" holes around the outside edge ,just inside the O-Ring...
... Your thoughts on this
...heres the pic of the drawing I did...
8 washers in each stack 6 stacks and a strip of stainless steel in the top and bottom of the stacks
provideing the power strip for Neg and Pos connections.
...I have it orentated so the bubbles would go up and out of the cell into the line... drawing in coolant from the bottom connection. if I layed it on its side 1/2 of each cell would be filled with gas all the time ! so having it like I show is about the only way to position the cell rack
...
Bob.......

...

[randy]

Hmm this could be tested easily enough, get one of those 2" rubber hose couplers and clamp outside an assembled cell and see what happens, should be able to see if any difference in output is achieved this way.

[Bob]

yah there ya go...
 but that would not test the netural plate idea of all the center plates in the stack being not connected to power , just being powered by induced means
... I drew 8 washers but after thinking about it probly 5 plates would be better because of the spaceing between the Pos and Neg connections THROUGH the netural plates.... as we all should know, that
is crutial on a netural plate design... the distance between both end plates is of paramount importance as is the electrolite striength. adding just one plate will send the production way up or way down,
not quite like a hard wired cell at all !
at least thats my view on it !
Bob........

[Too Many Secrets]

Bob, that looks great on 'paper'. Just would have to test to see if the 'trapped bubbles' theory would ring true and stifle production.

Also it would be vital to keep the bolts from creating a dead short. Maybe some nylon washers between SS plate and SS washers? Maybe thin gauge SS strip on inside making connection with washers, but Plastic on outside of plate to bolt down?

[hydrotinkerer]

That design would probably work good with the hoses mounted vertical.

[Bob]

My idea was using 1/2" plexyglass 4"x (however long)
with thin stainless steel as the 1st plate in the stack that goes the length of the stack of cells
...in other words all the cells would be connected to one electrical connecting point the strip of S.S.
and the bottom is the same way they are allstacked on the other strip...
you'll notice that I forgot to draw the holes in the strip .... so its kind of missleading (OOPS!)
but with the Stainless steel strip as the first plate and the plexy glass over it to clamp down on all the cells at one time I think it would work ok...
...

I just don't think it will be a better cell than the original Randy cell MkI
but it may very well run cooler I realy dunno !
...
Bob........

[Too Many Secrets]

Awe Bob, I see the SS strip now. You got it! my bad.

As for production, you might get a 'push' with the trapped gas canceling the added surface without drilled holes.

Well I guess nothing left to do but test it...

Anyone have any washers without holes drilled?

[charley]

I do.  I'll build one when I get time, which might be a little bit as we're trying to finish up with harvest.  I've got 22 washers left that haven't been drilled and some shim stock.  I'll have to find some orings though.

Charley

[Bob]

I wonder if you could use greased Kite string as an o-ring ?
the grease would keep the string put on the washer and you could just cross the ends of the string
to complete the circle....  compression should make them seal  with a very small plate gap...
maybe too small... use a thicker cord ?
...
its a thought !
might could just use insulated wire too..
or hand cut cardboard donuts !?!
how about rubber bands ? if you can find some suitable ! un streached layed down on the washer.
....most rubber bands have very little continuity in them, un-like inner tubes.
...
or perhaps a tiny bead of silicone glue on each washer and left to dry ?
...
or go down and actually buy the right sized and thickness of O ring ~!
HEHEHEHE
Bob.......

[Too Many Secrets]

Also wondering if maybe plywood would work better then plexi. I'm worried about all the holes drilled inline weakening the plexi. Then again the plywood is less rigid and maybe be harder to get a good seal... So... just waxing on...

[hydrotinkerer]

You can use HDPE and you can get it at Walmart for 10 bucks. I use it for my end plates for all my dry cells. It is the white cutting board. Easy to work with and doesn't crack around the bolt holes.

[Bob]

HAY if i can get HOPE from walmart for 10 bucks I'll go buy a bunch of that !.....
er... oh thats H D P E....  ( hopelessy Dippy personal Express ?)
OOOH a cutting board...  a teflon cutting board the white ones ...OOOOH yah ... actually thats probly cheeper than Plexyglass ! ...good thinking ! 
I got one around here like that somewhere ... hehehe  it will soon be in past tense !
thanks fer the info !
Bob........

[charley]

Well, I've got one built.

I really don't know how this picture thing works but I guess they're on here.  For the generator I used 1/4 inch fittings, 1/4 inch Plexiglas and for orings I found some seals at NAPA that had a groove in the center of the seal so what you're seeing is a washer then a washer with a seal surrounding it with the washer in the groove then a washer, etc.  There are 11 washers five of which have seals around them and one oring on each end washer that seals the hole in the washer and the Plexiglas's ends.  The thickness of the rubber that is separating the washers was .05 before tightening.  I know it compressed quite a bit but I can't tell you exactly how thick it is now.  I doubt that it is .010 but I'd bet less than half of the .05 I started with.  I used two ss straps for connections on the ends so you have +nnnnnnnnn-.  This was fairly easy to build once you figure out what you're doing.

I did run this for a little bit but ran out of light(my testing lab is the back of my pickup so when the sun goes down the testing is done) so don't read too much into my testing.

I hooked the generator into the sight gauge of a bubbler so it would suck water in the bottom and the bubbles would force it out the top.  For this generator to work it has to behave like a little pump I think.  If it didn't it would run out of electrolyte and you'd be done.  I really don't think one of these can work very well because of this.  If you think about it the hydrogen has to escape and the electrolyte has to flow back into the gap in the washers through the same hole and actually through the small gap surrounding the hole.  If you submerge a tero cell the bubbles flow out the top creating a vacuum for the electrolyte to flow in the bottom creating a upward current.  This generator can't do that.

For testing I used six packs of koolaid in a little over 2 cups of water the first time.  I couldn't get the amp gauge to hardly move and got very little production.  I cleaned the koolaid out and tried pure vinegar.  Same results.  I was running out of light so I flushed the vinegar out as best I could in a hurry and filled it up with a little over 2 cups of water mixed with two or three tablespoons of koh.  The amps came up to two or three amps and I started to get some bubbles going through the top tube.  I added a teaspoon or two more koh and then something really weird happend.  I lost all amps and all production.  The gen completely quit working.  I still have voltage and I have ohms.  I don't have any idea what went wrong but like I said it's dark so I guess I'll take a look in the morning.

Charley

[Too Many Secrets]

You can use HDPE and you can get it at Walmart for 10 bucks. I use it for my end plates for all my dry cells. It is the white cutting board. Easy to work with and doesn't crack around the bolt holes.

Yeah I've seen those. Great idea!

[Too Many Secrets]

Well, I've got one built.

NICE!!! Looks good. Wonder what it does....?

(This is like a 'build it and they will come' moment...)

Also, any details like # of washers would be awesome.

[hydrotinkerer]

I am curious what it will do and at what amp.

It sure doesn't look old enough to be away from its momma.

[charley]

Sorry guys.  I didn't know you were looking at what I had before I finished what I was writing.

Hope the rest helps.

Charley

[Too Many Secrets]

Awesome Charley. Sorry to tailgate on your post, was excited to see that thing!

I think the cooler electro will 'pump' into the cell. In fact as stated before, I think it would work fine with the holes on the horizontal. In fact, maybe better as all cells would have electro (and HHO) at the same time. As HHO is released from the cell, it will suck or draw in cooler electro to fill the space. Gravity will also help if the cell is lower then the supply of electro.

Good job Charley. Keep us posted!

[Bob]

I agree with Too many Secrets on the pumping action... but with the hose barbs pointed up and down
the washers horizonal... I think thats what he ment <GRIN>
...
the idea of the 2 hose barbs is to make it a pump  Charley... and to pump the electrolite constantly through the bubbler, as long as you have 3 places to connect to the bubbler it will work fine
one from the bottom of the bubbler to the bottom hose barb on the cell and another hose barb at the 1/2 or 3/4 mark up the bubbler to the top of the cells upper hose barb...
useing the same method as the "Flooded Tero cell" method. that way the water/electrolite comes in through the bottom hose barbe in the cell and goes out with the bubbles through the hose barb on top
...
I'm not understanding how you hooked it up where you were thinking the waters going in and out was through the top only???... thats not the idea with the 2 hose barbs, bottom one to the bottom of the bubbler, top one to the middle of the bubbler , top one from the bubbler is the output ( 3 hose barbs on the bubbler!)
...
Bob.........

[charley]

The way I had this hooked up was I have a couple of elbows in the bubbler connected by a hose that I was using for a sight gauge.  I cut the hose and placed the gen inbetween with the barbs facing up and down.  the outlet for the bubbler is on top so I have an inlet for the gen an outlet for the gen which is underwater and an outlet on top for the gas to escape.  I wasn't really thinking the water could only go through the top I just am thinking if the water and the hydrogen has to flow through the gap around the center hole it's going to get a little tight.  Where Randy's isn't sealed, hydrogen and water can also move through the gap in the outside of the washers too.  I do think that as it makes hydrogen the escaping hydrogen will create a vacuum that will pull the water into the spaces in the washers.  Having it below the bubbler should also help because the pressure should force the water in somewhat.  Good thinking Too Many Secrets

I did find my problem.  I was in a hurry the last time I put the gen together(didn't think about having to have an oring between the last washer and the plexiglas to seal the center hole) and forgot to put in the last washer so I didn't have a very good connection between the shimstock and the washer.  I'm suprised it worked at all.

I do hope this works.  If it does it will be easy to build and all you'll need is a combination bubbler reservoir with an inlet hose and an outlet hose for the gen.  Of course I don't know how hot it will get yet but with the fluid flowing through it I don't think it will be a problem.  You could hook a radiator before the inlet on the gen also I think.

Charley

[Too Many Secrets]

I agree with Too many Secrets on the pumping action... but with the hose barbs pointed up and down
the washers horizonal... I think thats what he ment <GRIN>

Bob.........

Bob I know it sounds wrong, but I'm wondering just how 'flooded' the cell would stay with barbs up and down. (as I've seen, a cell seems to 'find it's own level' by pumping excess water out with HHO.) With barbs on the horizontal at least each washer has 50% fluid on it at all times.

Of course all debate is easily dismissed by testing output.

I wonder what a 45degree angle would do? What is the tilt of the earth on it's axis? I don't know, I'm babbling... must... get.. sleep...

Like Charley says, I'm amazed he got anything with such a huge leak at the center hole...

[Bob]

Charley:
 Ahh Ok you got it right after all  good man !
...
the way I look at the thing is this, any position you can put the cell in that it has LESS of a bubble held in it the better off you are !
...
it shall be interesting to see what kind of LPM you get out of that little thing !
...
the question I have floating around in my head is how many plates can you have before the production starts to fall... hooked up in Series that is about 7 plates with 14vdc  I believe so my drawing of 8 plates isn't that good of an idea.
so 6 to 7 plates should be maximum plates for output because of the voltage drop between the plates in series... if ya have 8 Charley take one out  if your useing 14vdc take 2 out if your useing 12vdc.
...
the only other thing I can think of besides  small holes around the paramiter of the o ring would be a large 2" counter sunk indent on the top plastic plate that holds it all togather to get the bubbles to travel up easier.
...
ofcorse a person could run each washer through a Cone press and press a slight cone shape into the washers and have all the cones face up, that way no air/gas could be trapped at all... it would all go out.

...
the problem with this idea is the very small size... it needs to be about 400sqr inches to get any amount of VOLUME out of it at all..
that would mean cutting your own disks drilling the center holes and bigger O rings
...
although you could just make a bunch of small ones and gang'em  up, its a bunch more work and  harder in the long run.

thanks for the Experimentation Charley !
...
Bob......