Various Electronic's

[hydrotinkerer]

Scratch,  Very nice setup. In case I missed it somewhere I was wondering what the gpm on your pump is?

[hydrotinkerer]

Scratch, what kind of truck is your setup mounted in? What are the end plates of your cells made of? Sorry about all the questions just curious.

[Bob]

Randy... You have a SHOP... I have a dirt driveway... and an Aunning to work under...
thats about it...at the ranch I have a Quanset Hut about 25ft long and 15 to 20' wide that is stuffed full of stuff for storage... my work place there is a converted camp trailer My step Dad set up... works fairly good too...
... eventually I have my eye on a 30'x20'x10'high steel shop with a roll-up door
but that will be a few years yet... and it WILL HAVE A CONCRETE FLOOR!
...I am so sick of laying in the dirt to work on the cars its not even funny ! HAHAHAHA
...
Scratch: Sounds like you got it on the run ! and got your head on stright too !
Good man !... I do wish you'ed weld on a 2"piece of steel to the top of your Tank/pre-bubbler
though... and put one of those 2" pop off caps on there... wouldn't be that hard
and you'ed sure sleep better at night <GRIN>
...
Yah testing one of those big cells with a huge charger is only an approximation
but it does give you an idea of how much it can put out !...
I've only seen 4.5LPM and that was realy impressive I can't amagon what 10LPM is like
you might have to go to 1" OUTPUT lines ! HAHAHAHAHAHAH
...
in going 100% hydroxy on your truck I have given it much thought and think I will
more or less block off the intake with a plate and just hose in the Hydroxy gas through a valve...
turn the valve with the throttle lever and just control it that way...
the problem is You will have to control the gas Output at the same time...
that means a hefty PWM or two. hooked to the same foot/throttle lever..
no doubt it will take a bunch of tinkering to get it right on the money to idle and accelerate without falling on its face.. but having a raised idle should cure most of that.
..
Personally I don't like PWM's... but I realy don't see anyway around it in your case
you don't ave a raft of small generators that you could kick out of line at lower output
so I think you'll have to go the PWM route.
...
...
Yes the Line between the bed and the cab needs to be re routed to a grometted hole in the bed SOON as the bed will crush it against the cab .
...
PLASTIC Radiator ?? Never hurd of one of those ! may well be the answer though !
I have resigned myself to makeing my own ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

Bob, I agree with the pop off.  I wanted to weld another nipple on the tank for a temp probe, so might as well put one up there for a pop off too.
Manta, you ask about the mosfets well here is the number:  IRFP064N 120 amp.  I have two per PWM on a homemade heatsink.  I dont have a schematic for the PWM, I took a picture off the internet of the front and back of a simple PWM and printed out the back of the circuit, then I took some carbon paper and placed it on a solid copper circuit board and copied the pattern on to the copper then I retraced the circuit with a permanent marker next I placed it in some ferric acid and waited until the board was ready then washed it off and presto! cheap circuit board next I took the picture of the front of the board and copied the components to the board and thats it.
Hydrotinker ask for the gpm of the pump it is 1gal/min  and the pump was made for tank spray rigs from Tractor Supply and it cost 38.00 dollars.  The pickup is a Toyota 1994 2wd 4 cycl.   The end plates of the generators are made out of 1/2 inch steel plate and they look shiny because I powered coated them in my shop with a cheap powder coat gun from harbor freight.  These generators weigh 95 lbs a piece. The plates are 12 x 12 inch plate and its 1/8 inch thick and I have 11 plates in each cell, I used buna for my gasket material and its also 1/8 inch thick ( I tried 1/4 inch and results werent as good) these things are heavy and they can take alot of heat.  I work as a Supervisor at a Boiler Plant.  I would not like to buy all that stainless.    I like Bob's ideal about the weatherproofing PWM box that will be mounted outside in the weather, silicone will be a easy fix.

[randy]

either that or bolt down one of those watertight military ammo boxes, you can get em at army surplus outlets.

[Bob]

Scratch... Be sure you read the lable on the Silicone make sure its 100% silicone and do a continuity test on a test piece before you drownd your electronics in it !
...other alternatives to that are incaseing it in figerglass reson, or epoxy reson
that makes it impossable to get appart later though...where if you must take it appart you can slowly cut the silicone off and get down to the curcuit board again...but it ain't easy.
....
I used a 100% silicone with a 20 year garentee on the stuff. its just calking but very good stuff indeed... people use that stuff for makeing Aquariums and such and it lasts forever!
...
as you know even a small resistance in that silicone would ruen the PWM so test it good first.. because theres no turning back once you put it on there!
HAHAHAHAHAH
...the stuff I used I tested on a sample with no continuity at all... I think most of the 100% silicone will do that...so it shouldn't be too hard to find !
but I recomend you let it dry for a week  if its 1/2" thick or so... takes a long time to dry if its thick....
...
....
..... Have you given much thought to running your truck on 100% hydroxy gas ?
it looks to me like that was the plan to begin with with those 2 big cells ! HAHAHAHA
..I am wondering what your plan is for controling the Hydroxy gas to the engine is going to be...when you get to that point.
...
I thought a Hydroxy gas Holding tank would be the way to go for me as I could have a 2 gal container with pop off caps on it and have it maintain a 25 or 30 psi gas pressure in it
by useing the pressure switch method to control the hydroxy cell...as long as the Hydroxy cell can keep up with the highest demand of the engine there would be no running out at any time.... when the demand is low the cell would pump up the storage tank and turn off....
and cycle on and off as you cruse down the road... cutting your power needs to short high amprage useage instead of long constant draws....
it seams that is what the altenators now days are designed to do best anyway... short periods for high amprage.... not long periods !
....
from there, all you'ed need is a valve to feed the engine intake with....
although I am thinking we can stretch the Hydroxy gas a great deal by having a carberator
butterfly to mix some air into the Hydroxy gas ... how much is not known ! but its bound to be much less than a gasoline carberator for that size of an engine...
I was thinking of my Propane carberator the throttle body is perfect for it... a stand alone unit that would also mix the Hydroxy gas with air at the intake....
....
but the big question is ...what do we do with all that electrical junk under the hood that makes the truck go now... how much can we remove ? what has to stay inorder to not hurt the engine ? and such like ....
... the injectors can go...but the holes have to be plugged realy good!
the junk infront of the intake manifold can be removed... but doing that will probly mess up the computer.... thats where I start having problems with removeing stuff off the engine !
.... what do you dare take off ! HAHAHAHAHHA
....
Bob........

[candyman55]

Bob.
I'm thinking that you may want to leave as much of the sensors and stuff on as possible and just disable the injectors at least at first. Possibly injecting the HHO into the air filter box where everything has a ways to travel and mix well. If the MAF gets a good sniff then it may help instead of hinder us.

I am not sure of it's limits but my AFR Sensor Calibrator can cut the fuel enough so the truck won't start.

I havent had time this week but I will do a test and see how many liters will fit in a propane tank at a given pressure. If it is only 2 or 3 liters per lb. of pressure I am not sure a pressure tank of HHO will be of benefit. But a tank of H2 at 160# may if connected to the throttle sensor.

Just a few thoughts

[Bob]

Candyman...
I think the injectors will have to come out... because with them opening and closeing
without the fuel to cool them they could be dammaged... but I realy dunno, just guessing
...
YES its probly better in the long run to leave the engine as stock as possable when introduceing 100% hydroxy gas to it... fewer problems to overcome at one time!<GRIN>
...the Injectors on my truck are on the intake manifold I believe not in the head
so there is little worry of them melting.... so un pluging them may be just as good as removeing them...keep the hole plugged up ! HAHAHAHAHAHHA
but as you say keep them plugged in till after the initial running of the engine
as just the act of unplugging the injectors may cause such a "Error" in the computer as to stop the engine from working at all !
...
if you filled 2 25 gal propaine tanks with 120# of hydrogen gas and were still alive afterword <grin> I am sure that would run a vehicle for a long time Pure hydrogen
will need to be supplied with Air to burn properly and the best part of Useing pure Hydrogen is that you can realy delute it very very thin and it still will ignite !
ratios of 100:1 were tested  and found to still be useable in an engine ...HOWEVER the power output from such a lean mixture drops off accordingly... too lean a mix and the thing will be a gutt-less wonder!...
... and sense we can fill our own Propane tanks if we have the right equipment this is not an impossable task at all.
a Cornish generator and a vacume pump should get the job done very nicely.
a propane carberator would probly be the way to go there... but Jetting may well be a Nightmare... however the propane carb that I have does adjust to a very wide range from rich to lean... so its possable that it can be adjusted  on the carberator and be used just like that.
...
  but Personally , I'ed rather use the Hydroxy gas myself its got more Kick to it...
even if the Pure hydrogen is a bunch easier !
we could do the same with the Hydroxy gas but your risking a Rolling Bomb ...and we don't know what storage does to Hydroxy gas... its possable that within a week you might have a container with nothing but a few cups of water in it !
...
so to aleaviate the "BOMB THRET" we should go for the Hydroxy Generator ON DEMAND...
and thats where it gets a bit sticky.... controling the output to a high degree of accuracy
is nessarry...
 My idea of useing a small pressure pot controled by a pressure switch is probly the easiest... but that pressure pot would have to be rigged with a Explosive pressure relief valve... in order to make it safe to use !  then Useing the Hydroxy gas would be along the same lines as pure hydrogen but with less air introduced  in the Mixing stage.
Notice I didn't say NO air... just much less air!... and the engine should theoretically run just fine.
...
with this method its probly easier and cheeper to do than useing PWM's and hooking them to the throttle linkage...
the problem is with the Hydroxy gas and a propane carberator the mix will undoubtedly be way off... and getting it to the RIGHT mixture will be a real Royal pain in the Keester!
...but if the mixture can be obtained... then its super simple!
...
...
I dunno which is best at this point... but I suspect the small pressure pot leads the way
simply because its cheeper... and most of us already have nost of the stuff except the carberator and pressure switch.
I have both already... but putting that propane carb on a fuel injected truck is going to mean some side-ways-thinking !... if that proves imposable then running the input line straight to the intake should be the answer (through a ball valve,controlled by the foot throttle lever)
....
FWIW
...
Bob......

 

[scratch1676]

Bob, I have really not given the 100 percent ideal a great bit of thought.  I have always told myself if I can just get to 100 miles a gallon on my toyota and 30 to 40 on my one ton chevy I will consider all my hard work a success.  Since I have gotten the fever on this stuff, I think that I have spent a small fortune.  I have bought alot of things for this project that are still sitting on the shelf in that junkie shop I posted a picture of.  I have some acrylic 1/2 plates for the outside of my cells to make them lighter but when I thought about it they would heat up worse because that heavy metal acts as a heat sink, anyway stuff like that.  I just want to get thru with this PWM stuff and get these two alternators going and see if I can start dancing a jig or not.  I think your on the right track with your ideal though.  I have seen some interesting things with using a cruise control circuit to control a PWM to power the cell with.

[Bob]

Scratch !
 You should give 100% Hydroxy gas some serious thought ! simply because driveing by the gas Stations instead of to them will save you thousands of dollars per year !
...I figured up one time before the gas prices went above $2.00 a gallon that my wife and I were paying  almost $5000 a year on gasoline !... we live a long way out of town and it adds up fast! each round trip is just over 100miles and we drive it every day !
...ofcorse now we have better gas milage cars than we used to and I don't drive into town every day...but the wife still does.
...
needless to say having the cars run on 100% hydroxy gas instead of gasoline will be a huge
raise in PAY for our entire family !
...
but besides that I think your the only guy set up to be able to accomplish it besides Randy and Hydrotech... where ever he may be ! ... LTC Fisher is not far behind thats for sure...
and Hopefully he will be the first...SOON ....
but I have done the math on the problem of feeding my 2.4Liter truck on 100% hydroxy gas and every time I do it it always comes out to 10 to 15LPM  ...
I think it was Pilotguy that did the balloon test on his truck, not sure but that was real encurrageing to me.... 12Liter ran his 4Liter truck for 1min 8seconds....
a 4 liter engine is a big one to me... and we have no way of knowing if he leaned it out or not... so chances are it will be much less than that....
but at a quick guesstamate, you can see that 6liters would run a 2Liter engine 1min 8sec as well....
and if you figure that his idle speed was probly 800rpm then you can figure RPM into it too....   raise the RPM and you raise the consumption 4x800=3200RPM....4x6=24liters
so even at those figures 3200rpm will take 24LPM to make the engine run on 100% hydroxy gas
... but I know that is way HIGH ! ... but you have the capability NOW for 20LPM in those 2 cells in the back of your truck...
.... needless to say you could be driveing on 100% hydroxy NOW....
...
so its something to consider...all you need is the amps Man !
each cell recieveing 80amps should make you 100% Hydroxy gas and you can drive past the gas stations!....<GRIN>
sure there is allot more to consider like heat and output control... but your already 3/4 there !... don't stop now !
...
Bob.......

[randy]

there's a big hurdle were going to have to overcome before 100% is atainable, all cells start up cold with very low output, takes at least 30 minutes to get the temperatures needed for optimum output, that's where all my attention has been going recently, it's going to take a lot of cells to overcome this inital low output for 100% to be achieved, either that or a storage system that stores enough gas to run that inital 30 minutes. I THINK

[janmarsh]

Randy,   Pros & cons of latest Randy Cell compared to original ?

[randy]

well I'm having a hard time getting it to draw amps, I'm still experimenting with it, if you haven't rebuilt your cells good. I think the original build is better at this point, OOPS sorry

[janmarsh]

No problem Randy.   I'm sorry I am not yet in a position to assist you with comparisons.

I am totally revising jigs & tooling to enable me to repeat accurately numerous Randy type cells whatever plate configuration.

[randy]

another problem I ran into is the brass hose barbs I had in a couple locations, their dissolving, one of them was so fragile it crushed when I tried to loosen the hose clamp. I only had them on the bubbler.