Various Electronic's

[scratch1676]

I posted this because I didnt see a topic on PWM's and Efie's and ect.

[scratch1676]

I have not had alot of time lately to work on my Hydroxy stuff but lately I have built a PWM that is basic for now because I wasnt sure I wanted to go that route with this stuff.  I seperated the electronic board from the mosfet and heatsink, so that way all the high amperage is kept out of the cab of my truck.  I built two seperate circuit boards and two seperate digital amp meters and installed in this project box ( picture provided ) and am in the process of putting the heatsink and the mosfets in another box mounted next to cells.  I like the pwm because I dont have to use my high amp relays on the cell anymore the pwm controls the power and shuts it off and on when the pwm receives power.  I am also including a picture of the extra alternator I have installed on my toyota truck ( yeah, just like Bob's truck ).  I use one hydrogen generator for each alternator and one Pwm for each cell.  I am having concerns about keeping the weather out of the box for the heatsink and the mosfet.  The box that sits out by the cells on the back of my truck will have a cooling fan and I really havent had a ideal on keeping moisture out.  Any ideals on this would help since I am working on that item right now for the next week.  I have tested the heatsinks and mosfets without putting them in a box of some kind and they work good and they have not gotten hot.  I have put about sixty five amps thru the mosfets with no problems so far.

[randy]

cool stuff, I'm fixing to add another alternator to my truck "one of these days" I got one of those 30 amp PWMs but I don't think It'd last long at 120 amps hahahaha yer garage is like mine, no room for a vehicle hahahah unless there's room behind that parts washer, torches, washer & dryer, is that a hood open in there?

[Tink]

Scratch,
What a marvel idea! I never thought of using the same belt for both alternators! I also have a Toyota ('89 4x4 22R-E). Ive been fighting the 02 sensors. Now I gotta get under there and figure how to get that other alternator in. What kind of results are you getting? A few months ago I had one of those $30 PWM's from ebay and I fried it. I'm not messing with PWM's again till I get my exhaust worked out.
Tink

[Bob]

Scratch !
that Garadge definately looks like a fella that has too much to do and not enough time to do it ! <GRIN> hang in there !
...Wish I had such a place to work in ! HAHAHAHAH
 ...
I hate to say this but one belt to run 2 altenators is gong to go through belts like no tomarrow !... I've even seen 2 belts on larger altenators... but never one for 2
......good luck on that !
...
I figured I'ed use the Airconditioning v belt to turn mine...sense I have no airconditionier
...that leaves one belt per alt that way, which is a bunch better in my book
...but what ever works ! no holds barred in this game ! HAHAHA!
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

Hay Scratch Could you post a Pic of the generators in the back of your truck Please !?
I'ed like to see how you got that setup...
and sense you have it in the truck like that whats your MPG and stuff ?
what are the cells...looks like ya have 2 of them big dry cells eh ?
...looks like you have it up and running anyway... any sujestions to us guys lagging behind with their Toyota Pickups ?  HAHAHAHA
Bob......

[scratch1676]

ok for the shop its a mess I have some rental property and I use the front half to keep stuff related to housing and such.  I use the back half for auto's, projects, tractors repair and cutting, welding, parts washing painting ,ect.  Randy I am going to let you in on a secret, I bought two Pwm's they would only handle 30 amps and I know that just wasnt going to cut the mustard.  I took the pwm and pulled off the heatsink and the mosfet and just relocated them outside and replaced the mosfet and heatsink with alot bigger one to handle upto a 100 amps continous. alot easier than building the whole thing. like I said earlier I dont have a concrete ideal for the box that contains the heatsink and mosfets in it that sits out side next to the cells.  I am worried about rain and moisture getting in there and messing the thing up.  Bob you are right about the belt issue, so far I havent put both alternators under a good load.  I have used the single belt for about 3 weeks and the new alternator burn out because the big tractor battery laying in the back of the truck was down and the alternator tried to recharge battery and run the cell and could not handle it.  I now have rebuilt the 130 am delco and got the new 150 amp original replacement put in and surprise the original replace dont even work.  ( my luck )   so I will take it off and see if I can fix it and if not send it back and beg for a replacement.  My output which everyone always wants to know today was this.  50 amps with pwm on one cell 12x12 inch plates 1/8 plate gap with recirculating pump, pumping the electrolyte mixed with hydroxy gas out of the generator and into the bubbler/reseviour.  Hydrogen and Oxygen gas float to top of bubbler/reseviour and out a hose to the engine breather.  I measure gas output my removing hose from top of the bubble and lay it in a bucket of water and test with some kind of liter bottle.  a 1.25 liter bottle  filled up in 12 seconds running one of my twin cells.  I have not increased my mix rate of potasium hydroxide and wide open the pwm just moved my amperage to 56 amps without the pwm the amps were at 80 amps on one cell.
so I have to ponder on that for awhile  I will feel in more later.  I am getting sleepy  you guys throw out some ideals on this weatherproof box I want to make.  I read alot hear and alot of you come up with good stuff.





the setup looks like this for now and the cells are 12x12 1/8 inch plates buna gasket material 11 plates each makes of ten cells positive position on plate number 6 and neg position on 1 and 11.  I have the cells circulating thru the bubbler to control the foaming and the electrolyte pushout from the Tero Type cells when you put big amps on the cells they want to puke up the electrolyte out the gas hose.  I just let them do it and run it back to the reseviour/bubbler the gas seperates by moving to the top of the bubbler and the electrolyte just gets pushed back in thru the bottom line of the generator.

[Bob]

Yup,YUP ! thats the way to do it on the big cells like that just let it push out the electrolite and let it curculate it ... I call that the flooded Cell method and it works a treet!
....
Sounds like your getting good production, but I havn't done the math so I can't tell without
knowing what LPM it is <GRIN>...
 at one time I was all set to build some 12"x12" cells but then priced the stainless steel and at $28.99 each I kind'a figured I'ed find some other way !
... sense then I have found much cheeper stuff...304 stainless is something like $8.98 each
so I might give that a try !
...
take your Mossfet and make a dam around it with tape and cardboard and fill the entire back of it with clear silicone rubber the 20 year type from the hardware store used for calking and glue... and leave it to dry for a few days...
it should then be impervious to moisture and viberations... I have done this a few times on projects on my motorcycle and it works good... till you have to work on it ... then its a major Pain in the butt to get off. !
...in other words cover the components completely... as long as the Mossfet is already connected good to the heat sink the Silicone shouldn't hold in too much heat... but it will some ...no doubt !
its hard to make sire it all flows out level but do your best because you want to be able to see the components and see if they turn black and stuff when your truble shooting it.
... a thin layer is all you need but I put about 1/2" on my unit and it worked very goos from then on... till I burned it up one afternoon when I hooked it up wrong ( it was a voltage regulator unit I made up)
... I need to make another one up but it was such a long time ago and I got all my parts from radioshack way back then ... now all they carry is diodes and batteries !
...
strange how Honda aleayse has a problem with their voltage regulators and want to charge you over $200 bucks for one ! ...
My 1100 Shadow has the Voltage regulator burned up in it and I need a new one... I can get one from the net for $99.00 but still thats alot of money ! the problem is its both a rectifier and voltage regulator...the one I made for my 305 Dream was just a regulator
... this one is a bit trickier... thats why I havn't made it yet !
if I screw up and burn up the altenator on that thing its $600 bucks to START...
... I have to ask myself why I have such a bike  when the parts for it cost 2 times as much as a 750 !!!!! .... just don't make sense !
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...oh well it sure goes good though ! HA !
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

  Niiiiiiiiice system Scratch that's impressive.What's the purpose of the High Flo pump does it circulate the E-lyte from a reservoir tank(didn' see a reservoir in the pic)and then back for cooling or is it an auto fill system?

        COOL SETUP !!!!!!!  

[Bob]

I don't see a POP off cap on that resivore/bubbler...Tank...
I'ed hate for that tank to blow up...
perhaps a 2" hole in the top with a self expanding pipe plug in it
or even a big CORK
...
I asume you have another bubbler under the hood eh ?
...
well done
very nice looking setup !
and thank you for the pic !
Bob.....

[Tink]

Scratch,
I've been playing with the idea of mounting mine in the bed also and will use the plaxtic tool box I have back there to put everything in. It is weatherproof and they arn't that expensive. It will also hide the unit form vandels. Good luck! Keep us posted.
Tink

[Bob]

Tink:
what I like about Scratches system is his use of the electric pump !
with the pump you don't have to have the Flooded systems Tank higher than the output
on the cell... that a convienience in mounting the stuff !
....
 However I think Scratch is still way under powered for those big Cells he has....
he should be able to run the truck on 100% Hydroxy with that setup but it will probly take at least 150 to 200 amps to do it ....
so he'll probly have to add a radiator to help cool them down and then figure out how to run the engine on 100% hydroxy gas too
....
Bob........

[scratch1676]

bob your right on the money with the radiator plan.  I plan on running the electrolyte up front thru a radiator then back again to the resevior.  I was thinking stainless steel tubing with a ferrell or flared end to fit the radiator.  I have located some plastic radiators that might work.  The pump in the picture only has a flow rate of 1 gal a minute and it works well for circulating the electrolyte.  From reading some of the replies some didnt catch on that the one tank in the picture acts as a resevior and a bubble together.  the electrolyte level is kept close to the top of the tank and the hydroxy re-enters the tank close to the bottom.  So when the gas circulates the hydroxy just bubbles to the top and out the hose mounted on top of the tank.  I have not installed a pop off ( not that I wont ) but the fittings are all plastic and the top fitting is just hand tight and the tank is all stainless steel.  I have pressured tested my tank to 300 psi when I built it.  I used a hydro tester out at work for that.  I am hoping the plastic will give way before the stainless so I should not have a bomb here if something went wrong.  I have had a flashback once and all it did was flashback to the top of the tank and blow my hose off going to the engine.  I agree with everyone that maybe I need something somewhere on the thing.  I also want to install a port for a temp gauge, you can do alot of things with measureing that temp of the electrolyte in aspects of control.  For the most part its still a plan in progress when I get all the wires and stuff mounted in that outdoor box you wont see those cheap amp meters and relays and sloppy wireing it will all be neatley in the boxes.  and the hydroxy hose from the top of the tank needs to be rerouted so its not between the bed and the cab like bob stated earlier.  Thats why I like posted my stuff here because I enjoy letting others fix it for me.  you guys do come up with some good ideals and some time you spark this old brain of mine.  the most production I have ever gotten out of these cells was 500ml in 3 seconds thats in my math thats 10 liters a minute.  I took a big Cat battery charged it up all the way and hooked it directly to one of the cells with about 20% Koh in the water.  I cant tell you how many amps it was because I didnt have no way of checking the amps when I did it.  Since that time I have not been worried about the cell themselves but the electronics and the power issues and heat to the cells is what I need to address.  I did put a small video on youtube that shows very good production with just the battery hooked up to one cell.  the battery in the video was not charged all the way but the production was still exciting to me on just one cell.  Just go to youtube and search for scratch1676 or maybe just scratch and you will see it.

[randy]

hey scratch, your garage looks great, I think Bob & I have compairable garages, little trails through the stuff to get around hahahaha I got so much stuff that I just can't bring myself to get rid of. I'm actually embarassed by it.

[Manta]

Scratch,

how about a quick diagram of that PWM.  And what mosfets are you using ?

Manta

[hydrotinkerer]

Scratch,  Very nice setup. In case I missed it somewhere I was wondering what the gpm on your pump is?

[hydrotinkerer]

Scratch, what kind of truck is your setup mounted in? What are the end plates of your cells made of? Sorry about all the questions just curious.

[Bob]

Randy... You have a SHOP... I have a dirt driveway... and an Aunning to work under...
thats about it...at the ranch I have a Quanset Hut about 25ft long and 15 to 20' wide that is stuffed full of stuff for storage... my work place there is a converted camp trailer My step Dad set up... works fairly good too...
... eventually I have my eye on a 30'x20'x10'high steel shop with a roll-up door
but that will be a few years yet... and it WILL HAVE A CONCRETE FLOOR!
...I am so sick of laying in the dirt to work on the cars its not even funny ! HAHAHAHA
...
Scratch: Sounds like you got it on the run ! and got your head on stright too !
Good man !... I do wish you'ed weld on a 2"piece of steel to the top of your Tank/pre-bubbler
though... and put one of those 2" pop off caps on there... wouldn't be that hard
and you'ed sure sleep better at night <GRIN>
...
Yah testing one of those big cells with a huge charger is only an approximation
but it does give you an idea of how much it can put out !...
I've only seen 4.5LPM and that was realy impressive I can't amagon what 10LPM is like
you might have to go to 1" OUTPUT lines ! HAHAHAHAHAHAH
...
in going 100% hydroxy on your truck I have given it much thought and think I will
more or less block off the intake with a plate and just hose in the Hydroxy gas through a valve...
turn the valve with the throttle lever and just control it that way...
the problem is You will have to control the gas Output at the same time...
that means a hefty PWM or two. hooked to the same foot/throttle lever..
no doubt it will take a bunch of tinkering to get it right on the money to idle and accelerate without falling on its face.. but having a raised idle should cure most of that.
..
Personally I don't like PWM's... but I realy don't see anyway around it in your case
you don't ave a raft of small generators that you could kick out of line at lower output
so I think you'll have to go the PWM route.
...
...
Yes the Line between the bed and the cab needs to be re routed to a grometted hole in the bed SOON as the bed will crush it against the cab .
...
PLASTIC Radiator ?? Never hurd of one of those ! may well be the answer though !
I have resigned myself to makeing my own ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

Bob, I agree with the pop off.  I wanted to weld another nipple on the tank for a temp probe, so might as well put one up there for a pop off too.
Manta, you ask about the mosfets well here is the number:  IRFP064N 120 amp.  I have two per PWM on a homemade heatsink.  I dont have a schematic for the PWM, I took a picture off the internet of the front and back of a simple PWM and printed out the back of the circuit, then I took some carbon paper and placed it on a solid copper circuit board and copied the pattern on to the copper then I retraced the circuit with a permanent marker next I placed it in some ferric acid and waited until the board was ready then washed it off and presto! cheap circuit board next I took the picture of the front of the board and copied the components to the board and thats it.
Hydrotinker ask for the gpm of the pump it is 1gal/min  and the pump was made for tank spray rigs from Tractor Supply and it cost 38.00 dollars.  The pickup is a Toyota 1994 2wd 4 cycl.   The end plates of the generators are made out of 1/2 inch steel plate and they look shiny because I powered coated them in my shop with a cheap powder coat gun from harbor freight.  These generators weigh 95 lbs a piece. The plates are 12 x 12 inch plate and its 1/8 inch thick and I have 11 plates in each cell, I used buna for my gasket material and its also 1/8 inch thick ( I tried 1/4 inch and results werent as good) these things are heavy and they can take alot of heat.  I work as a Supervisor at a Boiler Plant.  I would not like to buy all that stainless.    I like Bob's ideal about the weatherproofing PWM box that will be mounted outside in the weather, silicone will be a easy fix.

[randy]

either that or bolt down one of those watertight military ammo boxes, you can get em at army surplus outlets.

[Bob]

Scratch... Be sure you read the lable on the Silicone make sure its 100% silicone and do a continuity test on a test piece before you drownd your electronics in it !
...other alternatives to that are incaseing it in figerglass reson, or epoxy reson
that makes it impossable to get appart later though...where if you must take it appart you can slowly cut the silicone off and get down to the curcuit board again...but it ain't easy.
....
I used a 100% silicone with a 20 year garentee on the stuff. its just calking but very good stuff indeed... people use that stuff for makeing Aquariums and such and it lasts forever!
...
as you know even a small resistance in that silicone would ruen the PWM so test it good first.. because theres no turning back once you put it on there!
HAHAHAHAHAH
...the stuff I used I tested on a sample with no continuity at all... I think most of the 100% silicone will do that...so it shouldn't be too hard to find !
but I recomend you let it dry for a week  if its 1/2" thick or so... takes a long time to dry if its thick....
...
....
..... Have you given much thought to running your truck on 100% hydroxy gas ?
it looks to me like that was the plan to begin with with those 2 big cells ! HAHAHAHA
..I am wondering what your plan is for controling the Hydroxy gas to the engine is going to be...when you get to that point.
...
I thought a Hydroxy gas Holding tank would be the way to go for me as I could have a 2 gal container with pop off caps on it and have it maintain a 25 or 30 psi gas pressure in it
by useing the pressure switch method to control the hydroxy cell...as long as the Hydroxy cell can keep up with the highest demand of the engine there would be no running out at any time.... when the demand is low the cell would pump up the storage tank and turn off....
and cycle on and off as you cruse down the road... cutting your power needs to short high amprage useage instead of long constant draws....
it seams that is what the altenators now days are designed to do best anyway... short periods for high amprage.... not long periods !
....
from there, all you'ed need is a valve to feed the engine intake with....
although I am thinking we can stretch the Hydroxy gas a great deal by having a carberator
butterfly to mix some air into the Hydroxy gas ... how much is not known ! but its bound to be much less than a gasoline carberator for that size of an engine...
I was thinking of my Propane carberator the throttle body is perfect for it... a stand alone unit that would also mix the Hydroxy gas with air at the intake....
....
but the big question is ...what do we do with all that electrical junk under the hood that makes the truck go now... how much can we remove ? what has to stay inorder to not hurt the engine ? and such like ....
... the injectors can go...but the holes have to be plugged realy good!
the junk infront of the intake manifold can be removed... but doing that will probly mess up the computer.... thats where I start having problems with removeing stuff off the engine !
.... what do you dare take off ! HAHAHAHAHHA
....
Bob........

[candyman55]

Bob.
I'm thinking that you may want to leave as much of the sensors and stuff on as possible and just disable the injectors at least at first. Possibly injecting the HHO into the air filter box where everything has a ways to travel and mix well. If the MAF gets a good sniff then it may help instead of hinder us.

I am not sure of it's limits but my AFR Sensor Calibrator can cut the fuel enough so the truck won't start.

I havent had time this week but I will do a test and see how many liters will fit in a propane tank at a given pressure. If it is only 2 or 3 liters per lb. of pressure I am not sure a pressure tank of HHO will be of benefit. But a tank of H2 at 160# may if connected to the throttle sensor.

Just a few thoughts

[Bob]

Candyman...
I think the injectors will have to come out... because with them opening and closeing
without the fuel to cool them they could be dammaged... but I realy dunno, just guessing
...
YES its probly better in the long run to leave the engine as stock as possable when introduceing 100% hydroxy gas to it... fewer problems to overcome at one time!<GRIN>
...the Injectors on my truck are on the intake manifold I believe not in the head
so there is little worry of them melting.... so un pluging them may be just as good as removeing them...keep the hole plugged up ! HAHAHAHAHAHHA
but as you say keep them plugged in till after the initial running of the engine
as just the act of unplugging the injectors may cause such a "Error" in the computer as to stop the engine from working at all !
...
if you filled 2 25 gal propaine tanks with 120# of hydrogen gas and were still alive afterword <grin> I am sure that would run a vehicle for a long time Pure hydrogen
will need to be supplied with Air to burn properly and the best part of Useing pure Hydrogen is that you can realy delute it very very thin and it still will ignite !
ratios of 100:1 were tested  and found to still be useable in an engine ...HOWEVER the power output from such a lean mixture drops off accordingly... too lean a mix and the thing will be a gutt-less wonder!...
... and sense we can fill our own Propane tanks if we have the right equipment this is not an impossable task at all.
a Cornish generator and a vacume pump should get the job done very nicely.
a propane carberator would probly be the way to go there... but Jetting may well be a Nightmare... however the propane carb that I have does adjust to a very wide range from rich to lean... so its possable that it can be adjusted  on the carberator and be used just like that.
...
  but Personally , I'ed rather use the Hydroxy gas myself its got more Kick to it...
even if the Pure hydrogen is a bunch easier !
we could do the same with the Hydroxy gas but your risking a Rolling Bomb ...and we don't know what storage does to Hydroxy gas... its possable that within a week you might have a container with nothing but a few cups of water in it !
...
so to aleaviate the "BOMB THRET" we should go for the Hydroxy Generator ON DEMAND...
and thats where it gets a bit sticky.... controling the output to a high degree of accuracy
is nessarry...
 My idea of useing a small pressure pot controled by a pressure switch is probly the easiest... but that pressure pot would have to be rigged with a Explosive pressure relief valve... in order to make it safe to use !  then Useing the Hydroxy gas would be along the same lines as pure hydrogen but with less air introduced  in the Mixing stage.
Notice I didn't say NO air... just much less air!... and the engine should theoretically run just fine.
...
with this method its probly easier and cheeper to do than useing PWM's and hooking them to the throttle linkage...
the problem is with the Hydroxy gas and a propane carberator the mix will undoubtedly be way off... and getting it to the RIGHT mixture will be a real Royal pain in the Keester!
...but if the mixture can be obtained... then its super simple!
...
...
I dunno which is best at this point... but I suspect the small pressure pot leads the way
simply because its cheeper... and most of us already have nost of the stuff except the carberator and pressure switch.
I have both already... but putting that propane carb on a fuel injected truck is going to mean some side-ways-thinking !... if that proves imposable then running the input line straight to the intake should be the answer (through a ball valve,controlled by the foot throttle lever)
....
FWIW
...
Bob......

 

[scratch1676]

Bob, I have really not given the 100 percent ideal a great bit of thought.  I have always told myself if I can just get to 100 miles a gallon on my toyota and 30 to 40 on my one ton chevy I will consider all my hard work a success.  Since I have gotten the fever on this stuff, I think that I have spent a small fortune.  I have bought alot of things for this project that are still sitting on the shelf in that junkie shop I posted a picture of.  I have some acrylic 1/2 plates for the outside of my cells to make them lighter but when I thought about it they would heat up worse because that heavy metal acts as a heat sink, anyway stuff like that.  I just want to get thru with this PWM stuff and get these two alternators going and see if I can start dancing a jig or not.  I think your on the right track with your ideal though.  I have seen some interesting things with using a cruise control circuit to control a PWM to power the cell with.

[Bob]

Scratch !
 You should give 100% Hydroxy gas some serious thought ! simply because driveing by the gas Stations instead of to them will save you thousands of dollars per year !
...I figured up one time before the gas prices went above $2.00 a gallon that my wife and I were paying  almost $5000 a year on gasoline !... we live a long way out of town and it adds up fast! each round trip is just over 100miles and we drive it every day !
...ofcorse now we have better gas milage cars than we used to and I don't drive into town every day...but the wife still does.
...
needless to say having the cars run on 100% hydroxy gas instead of gasoline will be a huge
raise in PAY for our entire family !
...
but besides that I think your the only guy set up to be able to accomplish it besides Randy and Hydrotech... where ever he may be ! ... LTC Fisher is not far behind thats for sure...
and Hopefully he will be the first...SOON ....
but I have done the math on the problem of feeding my 2.4Liter truck on 100% hydroxy gas and every time I do it it always comes out to 10 to 15LPM  ...
I think it was Pilotguy that did the balloon test on his truck, not sure but that was real encurrageing to me.... 12Liter ran his 4Liter truck for 1min 8seconds....
a 4 liter engine is a big one to me... and we have no way of knowing if he leaned it out or not... so chances are it will be much less than that....
but at a quick guesstamate, you can see that 6liters would run a 2Liter engine 1min 8sec as well....
and if you figure that his idle speed was probly 800rpm then you can figure RPM into it too....   raise the RPM and you raise the consumption 4x800=3200RPM....4x6=24liters
so even at those figures 3200rpm will take 24LPM to make the engine run on 100% hydroxy gas
... but I know that is way HIGH ! ... but you have the capability NOW for 20LPM in those 2 cells in the back of your truck...
.... needless to say you could be driveing on 100% hydroxy NOW....
...
so its something to consider...all you need is the amps Man !
each cell recieveing 80amps should make you 100% Hydroxy gas and you can drive past the gas stations!....<GRIN>
sure there is allot more to consider like heat and output control... but your already 3/4 there !... don't stop now !
...
Bob.......

[randy]

there's a big hurdle were going to have to overcome before 100% is atainable, all cells start up cold with very low output, takes at least 30 minutes to get the temperatures needed for optimum output, that's where all my attention has been going recently, it's going to take a lot of cells to overcome this inital low output for 100% to be achieved, either that or a storage system that stores enough gas to run that inital 30 minutes. I THINK

[janmarsh]

Randy,   Pros & cons of latest Randy Cell compared to original ?

[randy]

well I'm having a hard time getting it to draw amps, I'm still experimenting with it, if you haven't rebuilt your cells good. I think the original build is better at this point, OOPS sorry

[janmarsh]

No problem Randy.   I'm sorry I am not yet in a position to assist you with comparisons.

I am totally revising jigs & tooling to enable me to repeat accurately numerous Randy type cells whatever plate configuration.

[randy]

another problem I ran into is the brass hose barbs I had in a couple locations, their dissolving, one of them was so fragile it crushed when I tried to loosen the hose clamp. I only had them on the bubbler.

[Bob]

Humm ! thats interesting Randy !  My brass Hose barbs have faired well so far...
it might be the Extra oxygen in the bubbler alowing them to deterierate faster...
I bought a few nilon hose barbs from Lowes last time I was in there and they are working fine as well.... might need them in the bubbler, I be thinkin' eh ?
...
Bob.....

[randy]

I got rid of all the brass in mine, including the draincock, drilled out the threaded holes to fit pipe and glued in with krazy glue. hahahahaha no leaks YET.

[scratch1676]

I am going to try and video my output tomorrow (Sunday) and post it for you guys to see.  I dont have any pwm hooked up and I dont have the electrolyte heavy with koh but I do have one cell running on each alternator now and my initial startup with thirty degree water was 591 ml @ 6 seconds dont know the amps cheapo harbor freight meters are still hooked up not my digital ones I showed in the picks, but cheapo amp meters showed 40 amps on one and 35 on the other but I dont trust them.  I used a mountain dew bottle that was laying next to the cell thats why the weird ml number.  This is not a great output for these cells they do much better but it was a very cold startup measurement and the dual alternators didnt really pull the truck down very much.

[Bob]

Man that is healthy Output Scratch !  I wish My cells would do that ! HAHAHAHA
but it should be with 40 amps on one and 35 on the other ...thats 75amps !
and your just touching the BOTTOM of the Output curve ! that thing will quadroople the output
when you give it 180amps and warm temp !
...
I don't think you'll have any truble at all running that truck on that output realy !
...
for warm startups in the morning you could have a 120vac heat tape around the water tank
and just unplug it before ya leave !  won't keep it too warm but better than the below freezing temp !
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

ok, I just uploaded a output video of my Hydroxy generators.  I told everyone that I would, so check it out on youtube.com  just go to youtube and search for scratch1676 and you should see the video.  Feedback is always a plus thanks.

[ROADKING]

Ok, see if anyone can help me here,  I am trying to figre out if a capacitor will help,  I can not find out anywhere on the internet, but it looks like it would help the battery out if I were to hook one up after reading what I have.  Now I fine out that it takes 1 ferrad per 1000 watts.  I am pulling approx 40 amps on 390 square inches of ss,  So my question is would I be at 600 watts and would a 1 ferad be big enough to hel me?

[Bob]

ummmm.

help you do what Roadking ?
...
A capasitor stores electricity, but it also discharges as fast as it charges up.
so it ain't going to hold that much for a long time...
the problem is a capasitor will Pass AC as if it wasn't even there and block DC from traverseing any further down the line... so if you put a Whopping hudge Capasitor in line with your cell  no power would ever get to the cell... it'ed just set there !
...if you put it in parallel with the cell to ground it would then charge up and store all it can.... and soon as you turned off the power to the cell the capasitor would slowly discharge feeding the cell...   but why do that ?
...
 I don't see what your trying to accomplish by putting capasitors on the cell
perhaps re phraze the question ?...some times I'm a bit slow ! <GRIN>
...
Bob.......

[ROADKING]

The way I understand it is the way you explained it, except I thought that if I put the capacitor in parallel with the cell and to ground I understood that it would not put near the pull on the alternator all at once.  Maybe I am wrong, dont know and that is why I am here, lol  I was looking at a Stan Meyers video and he had four caps appeared to be in series and parallel, then got to looking and this is what these people do who have big stereo amps in their cars so I was just thinking maybe this would work.

[Bob]

they may well have been useing AC then with the sterio amps I dunno
but I see no benifit in putting a big cap in parallel with the cell...  its like makeing a big hole for water to pore into... for the altenator ... that slowly fills up... Yah it MIGHT take some of the SHOCK out of the system... but I seriously doubt it will help much realy!
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

The way I understand why they put capacitors on car stereo's is to smooth out the current load on the alternator. Like the stereo pulls 5amps(example) and every time the bass hits hard that is an extra current load of 2amps(example). The capacitor will take the current spike and smooth it out to keep from knocking the alternator out.

[Cowboy]

hydrotinkerer is right.  The cap in a stereo system is for current control.  With a big bass drop going to sub woofers there are severe current draw spikes.  And unless you like your headlights dimming with the music and replacing alts and batteries frequently.  They run about 1 farad and are used as small batteries to supply the needed current for bass hits.  There's no need for one on our systems because we don't get sudden pulls from the generators.  It stays pretty constant throughout operation unless something goes horribly wrong, in which case a cap wouldn't help you at all.

[scratch1676]

ok I worked on my stuff some more.  I had to redo the box that contains the circuit board because my old amp meters burned up.  I hooked them up to a non-isolated power and they started smoking.  I reordered some more lcd's and they sent me two different ones and they are larger than the old ones so I had to use another project box.  Don't critque my crappy circuit boards :-)  I am no electronic guru, just a copier of others great ideal's with my own twist.  The pwm works very well seperating the mosfets from the circuit board.  I hope to finish ( i know i said it before ) this electronic stuff this week.  Yahoo! I got a root canal this afternoon and I am tripping on pain killers 

[Bob]

HAHHA what ya mean don't critique your crappy curcuit boards ! they look great to me !
heck you should see some of the gobs of solder I got under a 555 ic timer I was making for my pellet stove ! ....down right scary !...
and the board is a preff board that has thousands of holes in it....  thats my kind of curcuit board...
one I can change when it don't work ! HAHAHAHAHA
... you got nothing to be ashamed of there thats for sure, I think you've done fantastic work on the electronics !
... Keep it up !  you'll be running 100% hydroxy before too much longer at that rate !
...
Bob.........

[Tink]

Scratch,
I burned up a PWM also. I've been playing around with the idea of replacing the mosfets, I know one is bad for sure. You've inspired me. But I don't see the mosfets in your pictures, where are they?
Tink

[scratch1676]

the mosfets are always connected to the heatsink.  I am working on the last grey box in the pictures, which holds the mosfets and the heatsink and fan.  I will take very detailed pics so whoever whats to copy it or change it, maybe give someone a Ideal.

[numberonekiwi]

I have a theory about PWM units and that is they have a adjustable frequency as well as an adjustable duty cycle

and that last part may be the key here ( just an idea for now )

Here is an idea ( Bob you need a light bulb above the head pix thingie forgot their proper name ) I have been thinking about lately to possibly reduce by half our power consumption for our cell  YES HALF POWER if it works and I think it might

If we were to say a 50% duty cycle it would mean the cell would only have power for 50% of the time ( no brownie points here LOL ) but while it is in the off state have another bank of mosfets turn on and run a second cell !

Now depending on what timing circuit you use this is quite possible and my theory is if you have 2 cells that are seperated and each draw 30 Amps connecting them in parallel with no PWM would result in you guessed it 60 Amps now take my idea ( it proberly has been mentioned before ) and feed each cell alternatly you are still only drawing 30 Amps as only 1 cell is ever powered at any fractionth of a second you have say 40 Khz freq or higher this sort of frequency could be near resonance as well therefore giving even better production

Well may work for those following the PWM path anyway why not use the off part of the duty cycle to our advantage

[scratch1676]

I didnt get to work on my stuff.  I had to go out in the country to my dad's and work on his furnace.  My face hurts from the root canal yesterday.

[scratch1676]

make it so numberone ( that's a star trek joke ).  I am thinking about your ideal on the pwm and if you supply 30 amps to the on position of the mosfet and then you supply 30 amps to the other set of cells with another mosfet you will only be supplying 30 amps at any given time.  30 amps pulsed and 30 amps brute force doesnt give the same productions results.  Example, if you measure the brute force connection with a amp meter you get exactly 30 amps and when you measure the pulsed connection you will get a lower amperage reading.  I think pwm's work more for current control.  They might do something along the lines of resonating with a frequency sweet spot but I have not seen any miracle works.  I am not saying your ideal wont work or be a benefit, I am just throwing some other brainage out there.

[Manta]

There is a theory going around that it is the fast rise and fall of the (essentially) square wave that gives an improved production.  Don't know if it is right though.

Manta

[Painless]

To gain production efficiency improvements with a PWM you need to use a maximum concentration of electrolyte and then use the PWM to control the amps to where you want them.  The higher electrolyte concentration (28% by weight for KOH), the less resistance in your electrolyte and the less current needed to obtain the same result.  This also reduces heat in your cell as resistance = heat.

To give you an example, the last dry cell I built produced jumped from 5.4 to 6.4 MMW just by using a PWM and maximum strength electrolyte to achieve the same amp draw and output.

Reducing resistance in every part of our cells is the holy grail to efficiency

Russ.

[Bob]

Very True Russ !
the problem is finding a PWM that will handle 200 to 300 amps !
because at the output I am shooting for 15LPM to 20LPM I will need that much amperage to
get that kind of output...
 if and when I do get that much LPM output I will try to run my 2.4liter toyota P/U on 100% hydroxy gas....  I may not accomplish it but I will sure give it a good try !
HAHAHHAHA
Bob........

[Tink]

Bob,
Just a thought but have you toyed with the possibility of using a potentiometer? It would be big and bukly but might do the job. No pulse but you could control the current by adjusting the voltage or maby not? I've only seen these for AC and don't know how they would work with DC.
Tink

[Painless]

Very True Russ !
the problem is finding a PWM that will handle 200 to 300 amps !
because at the output I am shooting for 15LPM to 20LPM I will need that much amperage to
get that kind of output...
 if and when I do get that much LPM output I will try to run my 2.4liter toyota P/U on 100% hydroxy gas....  I may not accomplish it but I will sure give it a good try !
HAHAHHAHA
Bob........

Bob,

If your cells are connected in parallel, then wire in several PWM's and run them all seperately'

Russ.

[Manta]

I think that the easiest way to envisage how a PWM works is to see it as a very fast on-off switch. It does follow that if the mark-space ratio is 1:1 then the power is off for the same length of time that it is on. So you only consume half the power over the same length of time as you would if you were connected directly.
Hence half the heat.  It doesn't need to switch quickly.  Once per second will probably do. Then you can always control the duty cycle to tweak the power.
So a heat sensor in the electrolyte that kicks in a simple PWM with a 50% duty cycle ( 1:1) will stop you overheating the cell.

Or am I wrong here ?

Manta

[scratch1676]

nope, your right.  But I have not had any greater output of hydroxy with a pwm.  I do prefer the Pwm, its way better for controlling amps and heat.

[Bob]

I think the only way you'll get more LPM output with a PWM is if you go from say a 20 amp electrolyte mix to a very rich electrolyte mix and run the same amperage with the PWM, or perhaps a bit more because there is less heat, and it allows you to do so...
but if you keep everything the same you should Loose production because the PWM is turning on and off , where before the supply was constant.
...
BUT increased production because of a PWM is reported all the time , but I think that is because it allows the stronger Electrolyte and higher amp settings due to lower heat
...(less resistance in the water due to a higher concentration of KOH)
.......
so if your keeping real close track of Output and amps used you should see a drop in production when useing a PWM...but to combat the heat its usually worth it
because its not just the 50% on and 50% off that reduces the heat so much but its mainly the higher concentration of electrolyte that does the heat reduction... less resistance in the water makes less heat... and that changes it a great deal... from boiling to a moderate temp all the time... so in some cases a PWM is realy nessarry... for that reason,
more than the controling of the amp ishue, because you will be feeding it as much as you can all the time anyway... with or without the PWM, so that hasn't changed.
...
thats how I see it anyway !
Bob....

[scratch1676]

It also gives you another knob to play with on the truck  he  he

[Bob]

Oh yes ! now that we need ! another knob to help us mess up the running of an other wise good running engine ! HAHAHAHAHAHA
if your like me you'll drive along and not be satisified with the adjustment and constantly fiddle with it... so you'll never realy know where the adjustment is at... somewhere in that area is the "sweetspot".... a bit more to the right on cold days and a bit more to the left on hot days , works real good.... while all the time your driveing like a mainiac, flooring it at stop signs and such, and wondering why your gas milage is so crummy ! HAHAHAHHAHA
...been there done that !
hehehehe
Bob........