Hydroxy Gas and Electrical Generators

[Bob]

 Sense Most Electrical Generators are powered by internal combustion engines there is no reason not to use Hydroxy generators on them.
to improve their fuel consumption. Or perhaps even run them entirely
on Hydroxy gas Alone
...
 Sense Hydroxy gas is so explosive do NOT attempt to store it !
generate the Hydroxy gas as you use it is the safest ,Sanest method!
...
  Hydroxy gas is ready to explode as it is made, it needs No air to do that... therefore the normal carberator is practically useless
it can eather be removed and replaced with a ball valve or the throttle or choke turned completely closed and left that way.
and then just control the flow of Hydroxy gas to the carberator by eather entering the carberator through the gas line or through a vacume port... or a Hole can be drilled and fitted with a hose barb to do the same thing.
...Now sense the throttle is closed and choke is closed the engine will be running in a vacume, this is nothing new as engines do that all the time anyway, its just a bit more of a vacume than usual.
so the Hydroxy gas rushes in to the cylinder from the ball valve which is in a vacume and gives it a tiny squirt of gas and the engine turns over and fires... it does NOT have to fill the cylinder!...
I repete  IT DOES NOT HAVE TO FILL THE CYLINDER every time the valve opens! .... it just needs enough of an explosion to turn the engine over... is all.... a bigger explosion turns the engine faster,
... so technically your electrical generator can be powered by 100% Hydroxy gas very easily by simply having a battery a Hydroxy cell and a charger hooked to the electrical generator
the Hydroxy gas produced will run the generator and produce abundant electricity to charge the battery to make the Hydroxy gas simply because the exploding Hydroxy gas puts out a bunch of energy
energy which is converted to electricity to charge the battery charger.... this SOUNDS like it is lifting yourself by your boot straps ...but its not because its not taking all the electricity generated to charge the battery, although granted it will take some wattage to run the charger at say 20 amps the generator will produce 3500 watts.... Over Unity ? I don't think so, its just common sense!
 My generator is a 3500 watt with a 8hp Briggs and Stratton engine
I am guessing that perhaps 2 to 4LPM will run the engine at operating RPM continuously ... a charger does not take that much wattage to charge a battery... so you are going to get out more than you put in
 an impossibility according to our scientist, but think about it.
you get out more because you converted the water to Hydroxy gas
and it is about 10 times more powerfull than gasoline /air mix
so it takes less of it to do the same job... nothing here is magic
or un proveable... just put the pieces togather!
...
Heck put a generator in your electric car HAHAHAHAH
...
I don't care if someone else says it can't be done. <grin>
... I havn't done it yet but plan to, just to see if I can do it !
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

I would like to try to prove this wrong but I simply can not we can have free energy simply cause what you have posted can be made to work

A hydroxy cell if efficient can produce 1LPM from say 15 AMPS @15V so if your generator was 3500W and you needed 8 LPM to run the generator it would require 15x15x8 =1800W which still gives you 1700 Watts free power so half the power produced is consumed = 200% efficient ?? hard to believe to many skeptics but check these figures and you will most likely agree it can be done goodbye power and oil companies you are sacked from our cars houses etc 

[Manta]

It may be that the best engine to experiment with is one of the old hit-and-miss engines once found on farms.  I'm trying to get one of my work colleagues to part with a little four stroke lawn mower engine he says he has. Once I can get that to run at,  say,  20%,   better consumption than on petrol  alone then I will consider bigger and more useful things.

Small steps,  small steps.

Manta

[hg2]

  I only want to know i thing regarding this experiment.

  Does anyone here think this is just another idea that will beat both laws of perpetual motion and over-unity?The only reason I posted this is because I feel(and have read) this has been tried by many people,many times before,all with the same results.Please don't accuse me of being the hydrogen atom here,if this was possible don't you guys think that it would have been headline news a long time ago?

  I was reluctant to post this because I know this can of worms of mine is going someplace where the sun don't shine via firice opposition,but physics is a class in high school where I got a better grade than phys. ed. and I stand firm on my beliefs.I truly wish it was that easy,I remember all to well taking a similar idea to show my father(a chemical engineer)my great plan to solve the worlds electrical expense.I had the old idea of using an electric motor to run a generator thus creating free electric.Well you know good and well what his answer was,burst my bubble for sure.But it opened my eyes to the vast hurdle in front of success of trying to get something for nothing regarding free energy.

  Gaud I know I'm going to get rug burns for this one.

  This is only my personal opinion and was not posted to try and offend anyone.

[candyman55]

Well H2 I can see where you are coming from, and I think that the laws of physics are sound indeed. But he laws were interpreted many many years ago and although they still pertain today as they did then. Technology has a way of overcoming things that were at one time also considered impossible. We need to keep working on the puzzle.

[hg2]

Well H2 I can see where you are coming from, and I think that the laws of physics are sound indeed. But he laws were interpreted many many years ago and although they still pertain today as they did then. Technology has a way of overcoming things that were at one time also considered impossible. We need to keep working on the puzzle.

  I agree these are different times indeed.And you're right in saying we need to push on with the new technologys that have been made available to us.And it's people like us here on this forum that in the past have contributed so much through private experimentation using our own time and finances to better the world around us.

 

[Bob]

HAHAHA Hg2:
 No I don't  "THINK" it will prove or make a Propetual motion engine, or Over unity thing....
but I believe the laws of Phsyics was made to be broken myself...
...
to me You don't have propertual motion untill something like a wheel keeps spinning for ever... without stopping for fuel, or oil... so if that is achieved ( and you read about the guys that achieved it and then never see them again<grin>)..I don't think it will last too long!...stopping it to proform maintiance on it is not propetural motion to me ! HAHAHAHAH
...
A friend of mine when I was telling him about my Vaporization of Gasoline experiments  told me ...Bob, I'll be happy with my gas milage when I have to stop every so often to syphon the gasoline OUT of the tank, because I save so much !...( God bless Ted Lakey where ever he may be!)

...
So No I don't believe Hydroxy gas is the answer to propetual motion although its possable that it could get CLOSE... I have enough fathe in the laws of nature that something will come along and prevent that from happening ! <GRIN>
... although Propetual Motion is theretically Possable (in my world)its very hard to come up with...
... so , No don't sell the house and buy all the stainless steel stocks you can find just yet.
...
I do believe that a Hydroxy generator hooked to a engine powered generator will power the generator
and from all accounts and purposes it looks to me like there will no doubt be left over voltage...
to use on something else...
 if you want to call that propetual motion then go ahead... but its not, it can't run forever.
but you are doing something completely diferent than has been done before useing a portion of the electricity generated to power a cell to make the hydroxy gas to run the engine to turn the generator to power the cell...
that may well fall under the headding of Over Unity I don't realy know... it definately defies the laws of nature and thermal dynamics.... because you can't get out more than what you put in...inless its sex !... ( oh sorry !)<GRIN>
...HAHAHAH
Anyway.... Reason would tell us that it will take ALL of the generaters output Plus a tiny bit more to power the engine... by the hydroxy cell.... However we have already seen that it doesn't take as much Hydroxy gas as one would first think to run a engine...  if this is true then we don't need that much Hydroxy gas.... so we now have a bit extra electrical power  to  use on other things...
....
But personally I don't see a problem with that...x amount of Hydroxy generators will make x Hydroxy gas
and it takes X amount of power to run x hydroxy generators ...
thats reasonable and every one can go along with that...
but so is....a gasoline engine powered generator putting out enough power to power any number of cells
....ok.... no problem so far...
the problem comes when Some Ding Dong like my self says You can bring the two togather  into one package... and why not ?
  Now you have people saying  the generator will not put out enough power to power the Hydroxy generators...
ok  then get a bigger generator....
 then they say now the engine is too big and you need more Hydroxy gas ...
on add more Hydroxy generators..
then they say now the generator is too small again....
get a bigger generator.....

and on it goes into infinity...
the only thing stopping something like this from working is your amagination.... you can get around the laws of Newton, and others, they are guide posts, not stumbleing blocks!
...
Will  it work ... I THINK so... but I'm not going to bet on it....
the key to thinking it Will work is understanding it takes far less Hydroxy gas to power the engine than we first thought....
I mean 20 to 25LPM is not that much and Bob Boyce made a cell that put out 54LPM hooked to his truck's electrical system....
so even if it takes 2 times my estimate it can STILL BE DONE !
hehehe
What ever !
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

  Whooops!!!! I guess the maintenance schedule was an oversight on my part.I guess I should have said when referring to the generator experiment that it was riding on the hind side of perpetual motion(that would include maintenance i guess LOL).Anyway that's what I meant by the perpetual motion statement.And Bob you're right again that until you try it there's no way of knowing if I'll work or not.

  Regarding your mention of the Bob Boyce cell,don't I wish I had the funds and all the knowledge to put one of those cells together.Resonance drive units have intrigued me for over a year now,but until someone came come up with a cheaper and less complicated way I'm afraid we're stuck with our 12VDC systems for now.And the pdf that I read said that the system you're referring to that had a 54 LPM output in fact was capable of short bursts of over 100 LPM and in the same sentence said it would be sufficient to run a 1 liter motor,but for only short spurts.

  Bob I do have one thing to compliment you on,is that I can already see that opposing opinions are met with courtesy in regards to response.What a pleasure it is to discuss a topic without all the ranting(that some forums overlook) getting in the way of trying to accomplish something and the end result be unproductive.Most of the members here know you well and in my opinion have all shown respect even when disagreeing on a topic,positive attitudes like that will ensure this experiment every opportunity to succeed.

                         Rusty

 

[Bob]

Thanks again for the Flowers Rusty !
But I have been known to get a bit tursk , if thats the right word,short , blunt and sound pissed off!
...but I don't mean to... these conversations sometimes can and do degenerate into name calling
simply because we are passionate about the subject ... but I have found that being straight and forthright
about the info, and refraining from calling the other guy a dumm dumm  realy works.  teaching others is not easy when you have Hard headed people to deal with !  and lets face it we all are not Kids and therefore we're purdy darn hard headed at times ! <grin>
 the first Forum I ever got involved with was the Rotory wing forum and to be honnest I learned a great deal about gyros from those people, However I made friends and enemys there, and after a while I simply got tired of fighting their narrow minds and left... Not all people are Likeable... not all people are Nice... but on the same veign not all people are Jerks eather ! <GRIN>
...
 I like Helping others, I dunno why, but I do...  I get a great feeling of satisfaction knowing I helped someone gain some Knowledge...
When I talk about Hydroxy generators or anything pertaining to them I talk just like I was working in a shop...  people don't need flowery words they need information to understand... so if I sound Mad or Irritated, relax... I'm usually NOT, thats just how I communicate...
it May drive My Kim Nuts some times but it gets the point across much faster than mincing words
... I used to be on the verge of arguing when I explained something till Kim showed me that I was...
I was supprized that my voice and words were precieved that way, but it was, so I have tried to change that through the years... but I still revert to the short and sweet "Blunt" method when my point is missed usually...    Many people took that on the Rotory wing Forum as a personal afrunt... I dunno why
as no ill intent was ment, but I suppose  it takes all kinds of people to make the world go arround!
HAHAHAHAHA
...
but enough about me ...
the interesting thing about this Gas powered generator feeding itself is that running the numbers seams to point that it will indeed work well...
but I discovered something that I didn't know the other day... as we all know a gas generator is raited in Watts...  I have a 3500 watt generator that is powered by a 8Hp briggs and stratton 4 stroke engine
...the generator it self doesn't work very well as it runs a electric drill rather slowly... I dunno whats up with that... but it puts out 117vac and has a 220 vac plug in as well
....
but heres the interesting point... 3500 watts at 117 vac= 29.91 amps  (3500/117) Ohms law
 ONLY 30 amps !!!!!!  I thought WOOOOH ! that sure ain't much !
and indeed its NOT very much at all... so in order to achieve the Preputual generator of our dreams we'ed need to run that 8HP gas guzzler on only 20 amps and only have 10 amps to do other things with... which is in my mind hardly worth bothering with in the first place...but it is something...
but then it is practically IMPOSSABLE to power the 8hp engine on 20 amps...
in my mind it can't be done even the best Hydroxy generator out there only puts out 3LPM at 20amps and 3LPM is not going to power that engine at 3500rpm...
so what would it take ?  probly about 8LPM I'm guessing here but that should run it rather well with a bit extra, ok ?...thats  a big guess but lets go with that..
sense the Gas generator puts out so LITTLE power ( I thought they did better than that !)
the gas generator cannot possably power 2 of the 20 amp Hydroxy generator cells, yet alone a 3rd....
 so My conclusion is NO WAY ! it can't do it
....
So now You tought me something Rusty ! <GRIN>
where before I thought it possable because of the low amount the engine needs, but finding out that the generator puts out so little amprage nipps the idea in the budd!
I thought you'ed have something like 100 amps to play with... and you can do somehting with that... but only 20 amps ?  Nah! it ain't gunn'a happen !
....
Bob........

[hg2]

  Bob don't toss the stew out the window yet before taking a second look in the seasoning pantry first.

  Instead of using a standard generator setup,couldn't the same 8 hp motor(might even require less) be used to run a high amp alternator like the ones in this link?


     http://www.zena.net/htdocs/alternators/alt_inf.shtml



  Now I know the first thing you'll squawk about is the cost,but they can build alternators that have outputs to 1,200 amps.I not sure what the limits of the 8 hp motor would be in relation to how large an alternator it can handle,but even a 250 amp alternator should keep the generator idea in the game don't you think.Possibly a gear reduction setup could be used to lighten the load but still keep rpms up enough to generate ample amperage to run a high output system.This might be able to run your power inverter at the same time.

  Well I guess that's enough to keep you up all night thinking about it.  HAHAHA.

[wess]

They make propane generators? I didn't know they made them. I got an ad for one costing $450 for 3500 watt gen. Might be easy to convert to HHO...Just a thought..

[Bob]

I agree Hg2 :
Wess: thats about the kind of generator that I have , its a cheepie for camping and ocasional use
...but my Dad bought a 15KW unit for his house and has it set up to come on automatically if the electricity from the GRID goes off.... that cost him about $5000 all totaled, but it sure is nice!
his runs off of propane and is hooked directly to a 200gal propane tank, I helped put the unit in...
its been serving him well for many year  now...he got it from "Northerntool.com"
...

  Yah I think a *hp or maybe even 12HP B&S engine would pull a 200 amp altenator but as far as a bigger one it will take much much more....  the standard Auto altenator takes anywhere from 4 to 8 HP to turn it at full load, depending on its size.... most ofcorse are about 60 amps... a 200amp alt will take a good 8hp to turn...  so as far as a Self powered charger goes Yah it should be feasable !
 say an 8hp B&S engine rigged to run on Hydroxy gas alone... powering a 200amp altenator
powering a 10LPM Hydroxy generator.... should do the trick because a 10LPM generator shouldn't take all 200amps .... which means you'll get out more than you put in... which is impossable... but I don't believe in Impossabilities, only challenges! <GRIN>
...
the setup I just discribed would probly draw 100amps, off that 200amp Altenator giveing you about 60amps free to use elsewhere and still keep from over loading the altenator and burning it up.
...
Something like this would be a "God send" to Tink  who lives Off the grid... a charger that uses no fuel and can be ran day or night regardless of the weather !
...
so YES it has Possibilites.... and I think it would work, but I doubt a conventional gas powered generator will do the trick now ! they just don't put out very much at all !
....
Bob..........

[hg2]

  I dunno Bob you might be a little on the high side with the hp to run an alternator that size.I got this off a reputable racing site that uses this formula to calculate hp loss and amp load.And using that formula the hp needed to run an alternator drawing 100 amps is 3.13.Here's that formula for you.




   How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)


Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used


Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?




   

[Bob]

WOW ....OK  I regress !
I just got those figures from Memory that dates back to the 1970's OK !  I read it somewhere , don't remember where but the figures were 5hp for the standard altenator and as much as 8 for a larger Altenator( used in trucks and what not)
... so if the figures I used are too high thats great !  that means more power is available to us!
....
I said before I remember trying to use a Old green 2hp motor from a "Reel type" lawn mower to power an altenator and  could not get it to work because the engine could not turn it...not enough HP !
BUT... that was a very OLD altenator and I was a Kid fer crud sake a bunch of improvements have gone on sense then ! HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA
it is very very possable that you might turn a 100Amp Altenator with a 2.5HP motor !
... if so that would no doubt be enough to power the engine that is running it with Hydroxy gas !
....
  I am going to try and run a 3.5 B&S engine on stright Hydroxy gas.... when I get it to work I might see if it can power the altenator it needs to power the cell... if so I'll have a stand alone unit!
... no fuel needed... and it can run a pump, charge batteries and even use the exhost heat and radiators to warm the house ! HAHAHAHHAHAHA
...
thanks for the INFO... that is incurrageing  Indeed !!!!!
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

but heres the interesting point... 3500 watts at 117 vac= 29.91 amps  (3500/117) Ohms law
 ONLY 30 amps !!!!!!  I thought WOOOOH ! that sure ain't much !
and indeed its NOT very much at all... so in order to achieve the Preputual generator of our dreams we'ed need to run that 8HP gas guzzler on only 20 amps and only have 10 amps to do other things with... which is in my mind hardly worth bothering with in the first place...but it is something...
but then it is practically IMPOSSABLE to power the 8hp engine on 20 amps...
in my mind it can't be done even the best Hydroxy generator out there only puts out 3LPM at 20amps and 3LPM is not going to power that engine at 3500rpm...
so what would it take ?  probly about 8LPM I'm guessing here but that should run it rather well with a bit extra, ok ?...thats  a big guess but lets go with that..

Bob thats at 117VAC now use a step down xformer to say 11.7 VAC that would net you around 300 Amps assuming 100% OK so we need about 13 VDC for our cells so use a rectifier to get DC and use about 25% of the power 75 Amps thats about 10 LPM maybe enuff to run the genny at 3600 RPM  if you were to have a line freq of 50 hz rather then 60 hz 3000 RPM would be needed possibly using less fuel