Hydroxy Gas and Electrical Generators

[Bob]

 Sense Most Electrical Generators are powered by internal combustion engines there is no reason not to use Hydroxy generators on them.
to improve their fuel consumption. Or perhaps even run them entirely
on Hydroxy gas Alone
...
 Sense Hydroxy gas is so explosive do NOT attempt to store it !
generate the Hydroxy gas as you use it is the safest ,Sanest method!
...
  Hydroxy gas is ready to explode as it is made, it needs No air to do that... therefore the normal carberator is practically useless
it can eather be removed and replaced with a ball valve or the throttle or choke turned completely closed and left that way.
and then just control the flow of Hydroxy gas to the carberator by eather entering the carberator through the gas line or through a vacume port... or a Hole can be drilled and fitted with a hose barb to do the same thing.
...Now sense the throttle is closed and choke is closed the engine will be running in a vacume, this is nothing new as engines do that all the time anyway, its just a bit more of a vacume than usual.
so the Hydroxy gas rushes in to the cylinder from the ball valve which is in a vacume and gives it a tiny squirt of gas and the engine turns over and fires... it does NOT have to fill the cylinder!...
I repete  IT DOES NOT HAVE TO FILL THE CYLINDER every time the valve opens! .... it just needs enough of an explosion to turn the engine over... is all.... a bigger explosion turns the engine faster,
... so technically your electrical generator can be powered by 100% Hydroxy gas very easily by simply having a battery a Hydroxy cell and a charger hooked to the electrical generator
the Hydroxy gas produced will run the generator and produce abundant electricity to charge the battery to make the Hydroxy gas simply because the exploding Hydroxy gas puts out a bunch of energy
energy which is converted to electricity to charge the battery charger.... this SOUNDS like it is lifting yourself by your boot straps ...but its not because its not taking all the electricity generated to charge the battery, although granted it will take some wattage to run the charger at say 20 amps the generator will produce 3500 watts.... Over Unity ? I don't think so, its just common sense!
 My generator is a 3500 watt with a 8hp Briggs and Stratton engine
I am guessing that perhaps 2 to 4LPM will run the engine at operating RPM continuously ... a charger does not take that much wattage to charge a battery... so you are going to get out more than you put in
 an impossibility according to our scientist, but think about it.
you get out more because you converted the water to Hydroxy gas
and it is about 10 times more powerfull than gasoline /air mix
so it takes less of it to do the same job... nothing here is magic
or un proveable... just put the pieces togather!
...
Heck put a generator in your electric car HAHAHAHAH
...
I don't care if someone else says it can't be done. <grin>
... I havn't done it yet but plan to, just to see if I can do it !
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

I would like to try to prove this wrong but I simply can not we can have free energy simply cause what you have posted can be made to work

A hydroxy cell if efficient can produce 1LPM from say 15 AMPS @15V so if your generator was 3500W and you needed 8 LPM to run the generator it would require 15x15x8 =1800W which still gives you 1700 Watts free power so half the power produced is consumed = 200% efficient ?? hard to believe to many skeptics but check these figures and you will most likely agree it can be done goodbye power and oil companies you are sacked from our cars houses etc 

[Manta]

It may be that the best engine to experiment with is one of the old hit-and-miss engines once found on farms.  I'm trying to get one of my work colleagues to part with a little four stroke lawn mower engine he says he has. Once I can get that to run at,  say,  20%,   better consumption than on petrol  alone then I will consider bigger and more useful things.

Small steps,  small steps.

Manta

[hg2]

  I only want to know i thing regarding this experiment.

  Does anyone here think this is just another idea that will beat both laws of perpetual motion and over-unity?The only reason I posted this is because I feel(and have read) this has been tried by many people,many times before,all with the same results.Please don't accuse me of being the hydrogen atom here,if this was possible don't you guys think that it would have been headline news a long time ago?

  I was reluctant to post this because I know this can of worms of mine is going someplace where the sun don't shine via firice opposition,but physics is a class in high school where I got a better grade than phys. ed. and I stand firm on my beliefs.I truly wish it was that easy,I remember all to well taking a similar idea to show my father(a chemical engineer)my great plan to solve the worlds electrical expense.I had the old idea of using an electric motor to run a generator thus creating free electric.Well you know good and well what his answer was,burst my bubble for sure.But it opened my eyes to the vast hurdle in front of success of trying to get something for nothing regarding free energy.

  Gaud I know I'm going to get rug burns for this one.

  This is only my personal opinion and was not posted to try and offend anyone.

[candyman55]

Well H2 I can see where you are coming from, and I think that the laws of physics are sound indeed. But he laws were interpreted many many years ago and although they still pertain today as they did then. Technology has a way of overcoming things that were at one time also considered impossible. We need to keep working on the puzzle.

[hg2]

Well H2 I can see where you are coming from, and I think that the laws of physics are sound indeed. But he laws were interpreted many many years ago and although they still pertain today as they did then. Technology has a way of overcoming things that were at one time also considered impossible. We need to keep working on the puzzle.

  I agree these are different times indeed.And you're right in saying we need to push on with the new technologys that have been made available to us.And it's people like us here on this forum that in the past have contributed so much through private experimentation using our own time and finances to better the world around us.

 

[Bob]

HAHAHA Hg2:
 No I don't  "THINK" it will prove or make a Propetual motion engine, or Over unity thing....
but I believe the laws of Phsyics was made to be broken myself...
...
to me You don't have propertual motion untill something like a wheel keeps spinning for ever... without stopping for fuel, or oil... so if that is achieved ( and you read about the guys that achieved it and then never see them again<grin>)..I don't think it will last too long!...stopping it to proform maintiance on it is not propetural motion to me ! HAHAHAHAH
...
A friend of mine when I was telling him about my Vaporization of Gasoline experiments  told me ...Bob, I'll be happy with my gas milage when I have to stop every so often to syphon the gasoline OUT of the tank, because I save so much !...( God bless Ted Lakey where ever he may be!)

...
So No I don't believe Hydroxy gas is the answer to propetual motion although its possable that it could get CLOSE... I have enough fathe in the laws of nature that something will come along and prevent that from happening ! <GRIN>
... although Propetual Motion is theretically Possable (in my world)its very hard to come up with...
... so , No don't sell the house and buy all the stainless steel stocks you can find just yet.
...
I do believe that a Hydroxy generator hooked to a engine powered generator will power the generator
and from all accounts and purposes it looks to me like there will no doubt be left over voltage...
to use on something else...
 if you want to call that propetual motion then go ahead... but its not, it can't run forever.
but you are doing something completely diferent than has been done before useing a portion of the electricity generated to power a cell to make the hydroxy gas to run the engine to turn the generator to power the cell...
that may well fall under the headding of Over Unity I don't realy know... it definately defies the laws of nature and thermal dynamics.... because you can't get out more than what you put in...inless its sex !... ( oh sorry !)<GRIN>
...HAHAHAH
Anyway.... Reason would tell us that it will take ALL of the generaters output Plus a tiny bit more to power the engine... by the hydroxy cell.... However we have already seen that it doesn't take as much Hydroxy gas as one would first think to run a engine...  if this is true then we don't need that much Hydroxy gas.... so we now have a bit extra electrical power  to  use on other things...
....
But personally I don't see a problem with that...x amount of Hydroxy generators will make x Hydroxy gas
and it takes X amount of power to run x hydroxy generators ...
thats reasonable and every one can go along with that...
but so is....a gasoline engine powered generator putting out enough power to power any number of cells
....ok.... no problem so far...
the problem comes when Some Ding Dong like my self says You can bring the two togather  into one package... and why not ?
  Now you have people saying  the generator will not put out enough power to power the Hydroxy generators...
ok  then get a bigger generator....
 then they say now the engine is too big and you need more Hydroxy gas ...
on add more Hydroxy generators..
then they say now the generator is too small again....
get a bigger generator.....

and on it goes into infinity...
the only thing stopping something like this from working is your amagination.... you can get around the laws of Newton, and others, they are guide posts, not stumbleing blocks!
...
Will  it work ... I THINK so... but I'm not going to bet on it....
the key to thinking it Will work is understanding it takes far less Hydroxy gas to power the engine than we first thought....
I mean 20 to 25LPM is not that much and Bob Boyce made a cell that put out 54LPM hooked to his truck's electrical system....
so even if it takes 2 times my estimate it can STILL BE DONE !
hehehe
What ever !
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

  Whooops!!!! I guess the maintenance schedule was an oversight on my part.I guess I should have said when referring to the generator experiment that it was riding on the hind side of perpetual motion(that would include maintenance i guess LOL).Anyway that's what I meant by the perpetual motion statement.And Bob you're right again that until you try it there's no way of knowing if I'll work or not.

  Regarding your mention of the Bob Boyce cell,don't I wish I had the funds and all the knowledge to put one of those cells together.Resonance drive units have intrigued me for over a year now,but until someone came come up with a cheaper and less complicated way I'm afraid we're stuck with our 12VDC systems for now.And the pdf that I read said that the system you're referring to that had a 54 LPM output in fact was capable of short bursts of over 100 LPM and in the same sentence said it would be sufficient to run a 1 liter motor,but for only short spurts.

  Bob I do have one thing to compliment you on,is that I can already see that opposing opinions are met with courtesy in regards to response.What a pleasure it is to discuss a topic without all the ranting(that some forums overlook) getting in the way of trying to accomplish something and the end result be unproductive.Most of the members here know you well and in my opinion have all shown respect even when disagreeing on a topic,positive attitudes like that will ensure this experiment every opportunity to succeed.

                         Rusty

 

[Bob]

Thanks again for the Flowers Rusty !
But I have been known to get a bit tursk , if thats the right word,short , blunt and sound pissed off!
...but I don't mean to... these conversations sometimes can and do degenerate into name calling
simply because we are passionate about the subject ... but I have found that being straight and forthright
about the info, and refraining from calling the other guy a dumm dumm  realy works.  teaching others is not easy when you have Hard headed people to deal with !  and lets face it we all are not Kids and therefore we're purdy darn hard headed at times ! <grin>
 the first Forum I ever got involved with was the Rotory wing forum and to be honnest I learned a great deal about gyros from those people, However I made friends and enemys there, and after a while I simply got tired of fighting their narrow minds and left... Not all people are Likeable... not all people are Nice... but on the same veign not all people are Jerks eather ! <GRIN>
...
 I like Helping others, I dunno why, but I do...  I get a great feeling of satisfaction knowing I helped someone gain some Knowledge...
When I talk about Hydroxy generators or anything pertaining to them I talk just like I was working in a shop...  people don't need flowery words they need information to understand... so if I sound Mad or Irritated, relax... I'm usually NOT, thats just how I communicate...
it May drive My Kim Nuts some times but it gets the point across much faster than mincing words
... I used to be on the verge of arguing when I explained something till Kim showed me that I was...
I was supprized that my voice and words were precieved that way, but it was, so I have tried to change that through the years... but I still revert to the short and sweet "Blunt" method when my point is missed usually...    Many people took that on the Rotory wing Forum as a personal afrunt... I dunno why
as no ill intent was ment, but I suppose  it takes all kinds of people to make the world go arround!
HAHAHAHAHA
...
but enough about me ...
the interesting thing about this Gas powered generator feeding itself is that running the numbers seams to point that it will indeed work well...
but I discovered something that I didn't know the other day... as we all know a gas generator is raited in Watts...  I have a 3500 watt generator that is powered by a 8Hp briggs and stratton 4 stroke engine
...the generator it self doesn't work very well as it runs a electric drill rather slowly... I dunno whats up with that... but it puts out 117vac and has a 220 vac plug in as well
....
but heres the interesting point... 3500 watts at 117 vac= 29.91 amps  (3500/117) Ohms law
 ONLY 30 amps !!!!!!  I thought WOOOOH ! that sure ain't much !
and indeed its NOT very much at all... so in order to achieve the Preputual generator of our dreams we'ed need to run that 8HP gas guzzler on only 20 amps and only have 10 amps to do other things with... which is in my mind hardly worth bothering with in the first place...but it is something...
but then it is practically IMPOSSABLE to power the 8hp engine on 20 amps...
in my mind it can't be done even the best Hydroxy generator out there only puts out 3LPM at 20amps and 3LPM is not going to power that engine at 3500rpm...
so what would it take ?  probly about 8LPM I'm guessing here but that should run it rather well with a bit extra, ok ?...thats  a big guess but lets go with that..
sense the Gas generator puts out so LITTLE power ( I thought they did better than that !)
the gas generator cannot possably power 2 of the 20 amp Hydroxy generator cells, yet alone a 3rd....
 so My conclusion is NO WAY ! it can't do it
....
So now You tought me something Rusty ! <GRIN>
where before I thought it possable because of the low amount the engine needs, but finding out that the generator puts out so little amprage nipps the idea in the budd!
I thought you'ed have something like 100 amps to play with... and you can do somehting with that... but only 20 amps ?  Nah! it ain't gunn'a happen !
....
Bob........

[hg2]

  Bob don't toss the stew out the window yet before taking a second look in the seasoning pantry first.

  Instead of using a standard generator setup,couldn't the same 8 hp motor(might even require less) be used to run a high amp alternator like the ones in this link?


     http://www.zena.net/htdocs/alternators/alt_inf.shtml



  Now I know the first thing you'll squawk about is the cost,but they can build alternators that have outputs to 1,200 amps.I not sure what the limits of the 8 hp motor would be in relation to how large an alternator it can handle,but even a 250 amp alternator should keep the generator idea in the game don't you think.Possibly a gear reduction setup could be used to lighten the load but still keep rpms up enough to generate ample amperage to run a high output system.This might be able to run your power inverter at the same time.

  Well I guess that's enough to keep you up all night thinking about it.  HAHAHA.

[wess]

They make propane generators? I didn't know they made them. I got an ad for one costing $450 for 3500 watt gen. Might be easy to convert to HHO...Just a thought..

[Bob]

I agree Hg2 :
Wess: thats about the kind of generator that I have , its a cheepie for camping and ocasional use
...but my Dad bought a 15KW unit for his house and has it set up to come on automatically if the electricity from the GRID goes off.... that cost him about $5000 all totaled, but it sure is nice!
his runs off of propane and is hooked directly to a 200gal propane tank, I helped put the unit in...
its been serving him well for many year  now...he got it from "Northerntool.com"
...

  Yah I think a *hp or maybe even 12HP B&S engine would pull a 200 amp altenator but as far as a bigger one it will take much much more....  the standard Auto altenator takes anywhere from 4 to 8 HP to turn it at full load, depending on its size.... most ofcorse are about 60 amps... a 200amp alt will take a good 8hp to turn...  so as far as a Self powered charger goes Yah it should be feasable !
 say an 8hp B&S engine rigged to run on Hydroxy gas alone... powering a 200amp altenator
powering a 10LPM Hydroxy generator.... should do the trick because a 10LPM generator shouldn't take all 200amps .... which means you'll get out more than you put in... which is impossable... but I don't believe in Impossabilities, only challenges! <GRIN>
...
the setup I just discribed would probly draw 100amps, off that 200amp Altenator giveing you about 60amps free to use elsewhere and still keep from over loading the altenator and burning it up.
...
Something like this would be a "God send" to Tink  who lives Off the grid... a charger that uses no fuel and can be ran day or night regardless of the weather !
...
so YES it has Possibilites.... and I think it would work, but I doubt a conventional gas powered generator will do the trick now ! they just don't put out very much at all !
....
Bob..........

[hg2]

  I dunno Bob you might be a little on the high side with the hp to run an alternator that size.I got this off a reputable racing site that uses this formula to calculate hp loss and amp load.And using that formula the hp needed to run an alternator drawing 100 amps is 3.13.Here's that formula for you.




   How much horsepower loss
will an alternator cost ?

As was stated in the answer to the first question, an alternator is a power converter. It converts mechanical power into electrical power. So it doesn't lose power, but rather changes its form. No electrical motor or generator is 100% efficient and this is true of alternators as well. Alternators are about 85% efficient with power being lost in the form of heat and wind resistance (cooling fans). Thus the real power loss of the alternator is relatively small.

How much horsepower does an alternator pull ? You can mathematically determine the horsepower cost at any given load. (Remember, alternators respond to load. If there is no load present the alternator is basically freewheeling.)


Amps x Volts = Watts
Watts / 745.7 (one HP) = Electrical HP Produced by the Alternator
HP x 15% Efficiency Loss = HP Loss
HP + HP Loss = Total HP Used


Example:
57A x 14.9V = 849.3 Watts
849.3 Watts / 745.7 = 1.14 HP
1.14 HP x 15% = 0.17 HP
1.14 + 0.17 = 1.31 HP Total

Now we know the cost to run the electrical system. The most important question is what is the payback ? Which way does the horsepower benefit you ? How much horsepower are you currently losing because of low electrical system voltage ?




   

[Bob]

WOW ....OK  I regress !
I just got those figures from Memory that dates back to the 1970's OK !  I read it somewhere , don't remember where but the figures were 5hp for the standard altenator and as much as 8 for a larger Altenator( used in trucks and what not)
... so if the figures I used are too high thats great !  that means more power is available to us!
....
I said before I remember trying to use a Old green 2hp motor from a "Reel type" lawn mower to power an altenator and  could not get it to work because the engine could not turn it...not enough HP !
BUT... that was a very OLD altenator and I was a Kid fer crud sake a bunch of improvements have gone on sense then ! HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHA
it is very very possable that you might turn a 100Amp Altenator with a 2.5HP motor !
... if so that would no doubt be enough to power the engine that is running it with Hydroxy gas !
....
  I am going to try and run a 3.5 B&S engine on stright Hydroxy gas.... when I get it to work I might see if it can power the altenator it needs to power the cell... if so I'll have a stand alone unit!
... no fuel needed... and it can run a pump, charge batteries and even use the exhost heat and radiators to warm the house ! HAHAHAHHAHAHA
...
thanks for the INFO... that is incurrageing  Indeed !!!!!
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

but heres the interesting point... 3500 watts at 117 vac= 29.91 amps  (3500/117) Ohms law
 ONLY 30 amps !!!!!!  I thought WOOOOH ! that sure ain't much !
and indeed its NOT very much at all... so in order to achieve the Preputual generator of our dreams we'ed need to run that 8HP gas guzzler on only 20 amps and only have 10 amps to do other things with... which is in my mind hardly worth bothering with in the first place...but it is something...
but then it is practically IMPOSSABLE to power the 8hp engine on 20 amps...
in my mind it can't be done even the best Hydroxy generator out there only puts out 3LPM at 20amps and 3LPM is not going to power that engine at 3500rpm...
so what would it take ?  probly about 8LPM I'm guessing here but that should run it rather well with a bit extra, ok ?...thats  a big guess but lets go with that..

Bob thats at 117VAC now use a step down xformer to say 11.7 VAC that would net you around 300 Amps assuming 100% OK so we need about 13 VDC for our cells so use a rectifier to get DC and use about 25% of the power 75 Amps thats about 10 LPM maybe enuff to run the genny at 3600 RPM  if you were to have a line freq of 50 hz rather then 60 hz 3000 RPM would be needed possibly using less fuel

[Bob]

NumberoneKiwi:
  OOOOH YAH ! there ya go ! great thinking ! that will get the amps needed !
see what I mean about 2 heads are better than one ! ... thats had me stumpped for a week
and you had the answer ! thank you !
HAHHHHA
...It never ceses to amaze me, that no matter how well you consider a subject a single mind will miss important details... its almost inevitable...
...
I'm sure 10LPM would run the 8HP on 100% Hydroxy... thats almost a given...
...
Unfortionately, that project is going to have to take a place on the "back burner" till I get some of these other things done around here... Phittttt !
...
 I still have to get Moved off the Mountian top yet ! HAHAHAHAHHA
...
Bob...........

[Cowboy]

A quick thought about the 1200 amp alt and the power required to push it.  Have we all forgotten about the pulley system in our push for technological advancement?  Reduction pulleys and all that happiness make turning a heavy load pretty easy.    Maybe hooking the pulley up to a clutch fan (replace fan with pulley) just to allow for some slip during start-up/surge operation. 

[hydrotinkerer]

On some of the new alts. they already have small clutches on their own pulleys now.

[Cowboy]

Well, doesn't that reduce the amount of rigging required for a good test?    I like it when people think of things before me.  sure makes life easier.  Do you have year/models of the vehicles that come with one?

[hydrotinkerer]

I believe they start 04 and newer dodge and chrysler minivans. I'll check tomarrow and let you know for sure.

[Losttoo]

The difficult we do now, THE IMOPOSSIBLE JUST TAKES A LITTLE LONGER

LOSTTOO

[Bob]

hehehe Ok... here's what we got on the "Colaberation Generator"...<grin>
...
a 5hp B&s should run on 8LPM ( needs to be proven yet!)
a 100Amp Altenator should be able to be turned well by an 8HP engine (pullies/what not inc.)
Large Hydroxy cell to make 10LPM
large battery to store the power needed.
...
So in theory.. the 5HP will turn the 100amp altenator which powers the Hydroxy generator
that provides the Hydroxy gas for the 5hp motor.....
...
a self contained "Dunsel" that does nothing but generate heat... so we use it as a heat source.... so it is at least usefull for something.
 
this big unit may well work as a battery charger...
or we may possably find that because of the laws of Phisics it slowly will run down and can't keep up ...
...
only one way to tell... but it looks good on paper...to me
each step has built in lee-way  in the steps above... each one is More than it should need
which to me Assures that it will work....
...
a very interesting Idea... Someone needs to build one ! HAHAHAH
...
Bob.........

[numberonekiwi]

If your alternator was say only 100% eff then to generator 100Amps at 14v would net you 1400 Watts

I think you require 1 HP for 746 Watts so 1400 Watts would require about 1.9 HP

take a 50 eff alternator ( most should be higher ) so 1.9 / 0.5 = 3.8 HP which leaves about 1.2 HP spare not a lot do do anything with but it may run your living room lights hifi and television

Looking forward to your results if you can do it small scale then upsize ( not macdonalds or KFC LOL ) Run the entire house - sorry truck !

[Manta]

Numberonekiwi,

Now we are getting down to the one real question upon which the whole thing depends.

Are we trying to invent a perpetual machine machine or not ?

I have said from the beginning that I don't think you can attain 100%.  For me the question is how small an amount of fuel can you get down to using hydroxy.  If I could get a 20-30% improvement in mpg with full driveability then things would be looking good.  I would then be able to change from my Diesel 1.9 litre Citroen to my 1.8 Litre Opel Manta petrol car. And still show a profit.

I just can't see how you can run on 100% without the system eventually running out of battery power and stopping.  I would like to see it,  but not holding my breath. It's hard enough holding it while Fisher provides some meaningful gas production figures.

As for the big amps.  I recon that the problem is the resistance of stainless steel to electric current. 

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
 I have No doubt in my mind that the idea here will be wastefull in the extream !
However if it can be done it is allot like a propetual engine in its concept
"getting more out than you put in" if you Look at it like that... but that is not the point
because you can get allot of amps by an altenator... and a fairly small engine can turn that altenator... and a Hydroxy generator that can power that engine should only take so many amps
etc,etc....
 all your doing here is changeing stuff around not breaking any laws of Phsyics just useing them in a way no one has tried before... it looks to me that it should be able to be done
Hydroxy gas is about 10 times more potent than gasoline air mix... and if that potency can be harnised in running that small engine it should produce more HP than usual... so the power to turn the altenator should not be the problem...
a 200 amp altenator is more than enough amprage to power enough hydroxy cells to make a 10LPM output...  and its Highly doubtfull that a 8hp engine will need more than that to run
at speed ....
so where is the problem ?
...
Sure there is a bunch of IF's in there.... but thats what makes it interesting...
you tell me...is it possable given those ideas ?
there will be a few tight areas no doubt... and it may be found that any number of the "Guesses" are too low... but untill thats proven to be true.. the given information we have seams to point that its possable ...
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Bob,

Getting more out than you put in  is the problem for me. Even the huge nuclear fusion ideas that are under test need more in than out.  They still need a supply of fuel.
The way I see it,  and I may be wrong;  it won't be the first time, is that 1 litre of water will supply only so much hydroxy gas. It will take X amount of horse power or even Kw/Hr) to convert the water to gas. But you still have to account for the losses in the system through friction,  heat etc. I suspect that the answer will show the power needed to generate the gas will outweigh the power from the gas. So eventually the generator can't supply the neccessary power to produce enough gas.
The only power we get for free is from solar,  wind and hydro.  Apart from solar cells,  none of the above are really usable in cars.
I will settle for a steady 25% improvement on my fuel consumption. I'm off to the shed to play now.  See you later.

Manta

[Bob]

Well I'm sure you can get a 50% improvement if you stick with it... been quite a few people do that good.... even me !...
except mine didn't last very long ....kind'a like "heres a taste but you gott'a work more for it"  type thing ! HAHAHHAHAHA
...
I remember reading an Artical in Popular science mag. many years ago... about a Swedish
inventer that figured out a way to make a device to "Lift itself up by its boot straps"
...something totally impossable ...it put out no air thrust and was simply a pare of spinning arms that exchanged a weight back and forth as they spun in diferent directions....
the device has so many applications its pitiful but in space it would realy be super valuable
as the speed at which it could propell a space ship is almost unlimited...
.... he was granted a patent on the thing and was intertaining developeing it with the swedish military ... and that was the last I hurd of it...
...
they had a few pictures of it and explained how it worked and it was no doubt ingenious
the lifting capasity of his 3ft model was in tons... and was powered by electric motors but could be powered by any motor that could spin a shaft.
he was in the proccess of improveing the unit and makeing it smaller and faster to produce more lifting power...
but I've not hurd anything about it sense....
 it too defied the laws of physics... and did what was said to be impossable
yet he some how managed to FOOL the laws of nature...
 you arn't stopped by the laws of nature...you just gott'a get around them ! 
...
Bob......

[randy]

I too have been fraught with failure, get a good running cell with good output then I think "what if I tried this" so I try that and end up with a malfunctioning cell, only cure is to tear the thing down for thorough cleaning, I've lost count of how many times I've been standing in square one again.

[Manta]

Hey,  I heard about that idea as well.  We had a program on the tv in the UK called Heretics.  Covered a lot of off-the -wall stuff.  Very interesting.
There was a bit about Laithwaite.  He was the guy that invented the linear motor.  Also Ponns And Fleishman.

Still got it on vcr tape somewhere.

Manta

[Bob]

You got it Randy ! 2 steps foward one step back... but it is progress, slow but sure!
very good advice as well... I should listen to it ! HAHAHAHAHAH
...
Oh Randy... I dunno where you got that stainless steel shim stock but they got ya buddy..
its not Stainless... I have that piece on my bench and its rusting!... I got courious and picked up every single shimstock with my magnet that I had in the cell...
Now I know where the rust was comeing from...( as well as the few nuts )...
evedently the KOH just agravates the Rust ability and the Lemmonaid doesn't...
so lemmonaid with that shimstock is the way to go... it may be Stainless but it do rust !
... just so you know !
..my cells have been working for over 3 months so its not too serious a problem...
but sense your rebuilding each cell into the new Config.... ya might get diferent Shimstock
...its a thought !

Bob........
..

[randy]

Yeah I've noticed a few spots on the rolls, rust, not sure what grade it is but it's supposed to be stainless.

[Bob]

OK... Note to Shimstock buyers buy a good grade of shimstock ! HAHAHA
...
if it gets rusty colored flush it and clean it out....
the GLYSERN should stop all rust everywhere in the cell anyway
... its an Oil base and oil will stop the rust right ??
...
Bob......
 

[randy]

well I'm seeing a little junk being formed with the glycerin and k-aid, but it's not building up so I think I'll stick with it. the sample at 30 % shows no sign of freezing, that container I bought at Mallwart has bit the dust, couldn't handle the heat I guess, just went down and bought some end caps for my 3" ABS, I'm gonna go the other way this time, I'm going to try 2 MKII washer cells in series with as little fluid as I can get, allowing the amps to rise quickly, I dont think the heat will be a problem with them that way, guess I'll find out.

[hydrotinkerer]

The shim stock I bought from fastenal was 302 grade. A piece has been sitting on the bench at the shop for 3 months now and hasn't rusted yet. The 6x6" cell I have came from that stock and hasn't done anything in the cell....so far.

[Bob]

Mine didn't do nothing till it rained and it got wet... then dried out naturally
... what bothers me is its Magnetic... my magnet that I pick up dropped tools with under the car... picks all the shim stock up real easily... like its tin... not stainless...
does stainless come in grades that is magnetic ? ... I thought stainless ment NO RUST no matter what ya did ! HAHAHAH live and learn I guess !
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

There are grades of stainless that are magnetic. 302ss is magnetic(slightly). In the lower right corner this site gives the ss properties.

http://www.falcon-metals.com/stainlessandalloys/stainlesssteel/stainless-steel.htm

[Bob]

interesting info there Hydrotinkerer !
it seams that all stainless steels are not stainless....
looks like anything of the 304 grade and above is Actually "Stainless" or crosion resistant
to a high degree... the lower numbered stuff looks to be just a good steel ...
non magnetic all of it except the 302 stuff which is slightly magnetic....
the shim stock I have is not slightly magnetic by any strech of the amagnation... its HIGHLY magnetic... which makes me wonder if it is stainless at all !...
... could be the major reason for the rust in the cell... but I won't know till I make darn sure every nut and washer is not normal steel... I'm purty sure I made all 3 cells out of 100% stainless steel... but my memory plays tricks on me at times and I'll have to conferm it to be positive... if it turns out that they are all Stainless steel then it Must be the shimstock thats causeing the rust.
...thats how I look at it anyway ! <GRIN>
....
Bob...

[hg2]

  I think a lot of the stainless that comes from china is of low grade.Last summer I bought a new fillet knife that was made in china.My son and I went salt water fishing and was using it to gut fish and cut bait,we forgot to wash off the knife with fresh water,and after a month went out fishing again and the knife had rust all over it.The salt water had taken it's toll on the stainless,the package it came in stated that it was stainless but I'm sure what grade it was.

[LTCFISHER]

We allways test our SST. with a magnet, the Navy wants what it pays for to be correct.
Anything under 304 SST. I believe can be magnetized but not to sure on the numbers any more.

[hg2]

  I've heard that the 304 ss can go either way regarding magnatism,something to do with it being cold worked or not.

[Bob]

According to the info at Onlinemetals.com they say 302 is the ONLY one that is slightly magnetic and 304 is not... and 304 is stainless, and resists crosion and all that stuff
unlike 302   so it sounds to me if your buying stainless steel best not to bother with 302
as it sounds like its just a higher grade than common steel is all... sounds like you have to get 304 to even be in the stainless bracket...
...
I remember having to desifer the Alumimum grades because of their verious grades and came to the conclusion that buying 6061T6 was a waste of money.... allot like buying surgical stainless steel... sure it works but there is cheeper stuff that will do what you are after!
...sense the Higher grade of Alum was being used on gyrocopters there was a big argument to useing "the best"...but in this case your life is not on the line because of the metal quality ... so I recomend 304 Stainless steel... only because of what I've read mind you...
<GRIN> I'm not a stainless steel expert...
I believe the Wall switch plate covers at Lowes are 304 Stainless steel and they have shown to be realy hardy and stand up extreamily well... I plan to pull my Smack booster appart as it has been sitting in electrolite for a good 3 months and see what it looks like tomarrow
...
if their in bad shape I'll let ya know !
...
 I hope to test the Smack booster on the B&S 5hp tomorrow if I can get to it...
...
Bob......

[Tink]

I always take a magnet with me to ACE or anyplace when getting SS. They often get the different types mixed up in the same bin. I've found that 302 is slightly magnetic too. 304 seams to be the best. I think 316 is better than 304 but costs at least double. 440 and the like is what is used in good Chef knives and it is deffentaly magnetic. It is used because it is more sanitary. ST-18 for bolts is somewhat magnetic too. At ACE the polished SS seams to be the better stuff, not magnetic at all but cost much more too.
for what it's worth,
Tink

[Bob]

well, I didn't tear the smackbooster down ...I plugged it in instead ! and used it...
probly only putting out 1/4LPM or 1/2LPM at the most but it was enough to go boom in the cylinder of the B&S 5hp...
 All I got was a couple of chuggs out of the thing... it would not sustain at all...
and I'm fairly certain its because of the timeing
....
...
..
seams to me the Wall switch plates are a better buy than stainless steel from the metal shops on-line... the problem is I need so many of them... I dunno which one to get ...the 6 sheets of 12"x12" or 40 S.S.Wall switch plates... they will cost about $50 bucks which ever one I buy... and thats allot of money for me to spend  right now !
...
I'm leaning towards the 6- 12"x12" plates of 304 2b and make a big cell like scratch has but fewer plates ! ( I have less amps available than he has ! )
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

  Bob fewer plates are going to raise your amps not lower them.And using 6-12x12 plates your amps are going to be almost 60.I tried skipping a plate less on my cell(which has 7 plates) and the amps went from 40 to over 60.

[Bob]

Well hg2 that depends on what ya mean....
keeping the same electrolite, removeing one plate and putting the same electrolite back in ...YES your amp draw will go up...
..that is because of the Amps per square inch thing...
more plate area lowers the Amps per square inch, Less area raises amps per square inch
However if you start off with 4 plates and mix the electrolite to draw 40 amps it will take less electrolite than if you started with 6 plates and mixed to 40 amps... the more surface area the more electrolite in the mix is needed to achieve the same amp draw
...
... I said and I quote myself <GRIN>
...
I'm leaning towards the 6- 12"x12" plates of 304 2b and make a big cell like scratch has but fewer plates ! ( I have less amps available than he has ! )
...
...
meaning in order to get the AMPS per square inch that scratch has I will have to make a smaller cell because my total amprage is not as high as his is...
so when I shoot for .5amps per sqr inch I have to start reduceing plate area if I am going to keep that ratio when I reach the max amps I can put out...
...
he was running 50amps into his cell with I think 14 plates but I'm not positive on that...
to get about 10LPM per cell...
12x12=144"x14=2016sqr inch./50amps=.0248amps per sqr inch ...VERY LOW I might add ( and he knows this already)
so to keep the same minimum ratio and use my max amprage at 30 amps
1200sqr inch / 30amps =.025 amps per sqr inch...
...or just over 8 plates....
....
so if theory holds true that with the same Amps per sqr inch 8plates at 30amps should do the same as his 14 plates at 50amps... because the amps per square inch ratio is the same
...the question is will the volume of OUTPUT be the same or not ... and technically it shouldn't be as only the efficiency is maintained, not the VOLUME.
it should be ....5.714 LPM instead
14plates/10LPM=0.714LPMper plate
0.714x8plates=5.714LPM
..... So cell efficiency is a function of amps per square inch...interesting!
...
thats what I ment...even if its not what I said !
HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

  Ok Bob I think I know what you thought you meant even though it's not what you said you meant.
  Get my meaning? HAHAHA

[Bob]

Well I think I thought what you ment but ment something else afterword or was it before I ment it ? maybe I ment just what I said when I ment it but later ment it before ?
I dunno ...I think I'm kind'a confuzelated ...I think I'll go lie down a while...my head hurts!
HAHAHAHHAHA
Bob........

[randy]

Bob are you saying you said before what you said before you said what you said??

[Bob]

No ...what I said before I said what I said before was before I said what I said I should'a Shut the F--- UP ! ....but in diferent words than before I said what I said when I said it!

 HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
ahem... sorry !
but I couldn't resist !
...
Bob.......