Running a Briggs&Stratton....

[Bob]

Howdy All
As Promiced I am takeing on the task of trying to run a Briggs and Stratton 5HP engine
on 100% Hydroxy gas alone...
so, I brought home my 5hp Briggs and Stratton engine from the Ranch and set it up on my work table ... its 206cc or 12.5C.I. Displacement ( says so on the engine coweling!)
got it running good, starts with 1 pull after its ran a bit... so I figure it'll be a good test to see if it runs on Hydroxy gas or not....
I am totally guessing here but I think I'll need at least 2LPM to run that engine
(1LPM per 100cc displacement)... ofcorse I can be way off and it need 2LPM per 100cc
 I don't know... I am guessing ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
I'll pull the carb and gas-tank on it and then make a adaptor on the intake with a hose nipple on it... and try  it on Hydroxy gas then ...
... my problem is not the mechanics, its getting enough Hydroxy gas !....
but its an interesting experiment... I plan to power the hydroxy generator with the welder on its lowest setting on DC... that worked very well before and that should give me quite a bit of Hydroxy gas to play with !
...
All I got done on this project today was mounting the engine on the work table ( a 1-1/4" 4'x4' Hunk of plywood Nailed to a tree stump... makes a great table! <GRIN>)
it has 2 pins and only one bolt in the hold downs but it don't go anywhere when it runs and thats all I am worried about... I took off the big 8" Impeller I had on it as a snow thrower... so there is Nothing on the shaft to turn... I may hook a pully to it later and see what kind of diference the LOAD on the engine makes when Running the Hydroxy gas.
...
at the Moment I am thinking just sealing off the intake and feeding the Hydroxy hose right to it with no air intake at all... but if I can find the right parts in my junk bin I may put a ball valve on it with a T for the hydroxy gas so I can see how lean the mixture will run...  if my guesses are right I should be able to streach the LPM a long way that way.
... but its all guess work at this stage ... tomorrow should tell something!
...
Bob.........




Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

Just so I understand are you feeding just hho gas and no outside air mix?

[geezer]

Bob....... was wondering if you were familair with telsa tech site and geet. where they run a lawnmower eng on water and its own fumes.  kind of far fetcht. but they have free plans for small eng expensive plans for cars. if you are interested google   telsa tech inc   look under freeplans  or  GEET

[Bob]

Yes I am Fimilure with that setup... its very ingenious !
I saw one of those running at a parts place in town last summer, that is what got me started in this stuff... a fella had a b&s 2.5 or 3Hp engine mounted on a board and the Geet reactor on it... and he Said that there was nothing but water in the container... but after reading the Geet site I seriously doubt that there was no gasoline in the water at all...
but it is a very good atomization system and useing the Exhost to excite it in the first place is a stroke of genious....
 but that is not what I'm trying to prove here...
I want to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that a internal combustion engine can run on Hydroxy gas alone...
 I want to have all the numbers, the LPM and Engine Displacement and how much it takes to accomplish the task....
for me its fairly easy to do, but for most people it would be a substancial investment, but I already have the nessarry stuff to do it and all I have to do is get off my butt and do it! <GRIN>
 I took off the carb and gas-tank a bit ago, and am useing the Carb gasket as a shape to make the intake manifold for the Hydroxy gas input... I can't find a 3/8" Pipe "T" anywhere and the ball valve I have is 3/8" and I have a 1/4"x3/8" pipe hose barb that screws into the Ball valve nicely... so for Now I think I will try directly connecting to the engine with the hydroxy line with NO outside air at all... as its a simple weld-up job for me
...I have the holes drilled in the 3/16" plate scrap but need to cut it out with the hack saw yet and rough out its shape. then weld a 1/2" short piece of pipe onto the flange
so it will bolt onto the engine...
...
All this will prove is that a engine will run on the Hydroxy gas and it will give me the LPM needed for the size of the engine... those 2 figures should help us in determineing the needed LPM for out Auto engines.
...
although we all know a B&S engine is far from very efficient...infact they don't get much worse in fuel echonemy ! but its a start !
...
My goal is to run the Hydroxy generator and the engine at the same time useing no storage device... just a bubbler... and then do a LPM test after a successfull run.
..
I won't be able to tell how many amps are being used and thats rather unimportant anyway
as the LPM is the KEY...
...
Depending on what happens tomarrow I might even get to try it and see what it does !hehehehe
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Here's 2 Pictures one of the engine with the gastank and intrigated carb off then engine and
the other of the ball valve and stuff I plan to make a new manifold out of for the Hydroxy gas...
Bob...

[Bob]

Hydrotech: Yes ...thats the plan for the moment no outside air at all just the Hydroxy gas
and I'll see what that does.
...it hasn't ran yet but I have high hopes !<GRIN>
...
Eventually I'ed like to make a  venturi/carb thingie to mix outside air with the hydroxy gas and see how far I can stretch the Hydroxy gas.... "how lean can it go and still run" type of thing...  but for now No air at all.
...
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,
If you want something to drive you could fit a pulley and run an alternator.  That way we will find out if the B&S can really produce enough power using hydroxy  (Via the alternator and a battery) to run itself.
That will help lay to rest of the 'perpetual motion machine' ghost.

Manta

[Bob]

HAHAHA true ...
anyone got one of those 200amp super density Altenators or what ever their called they want to donate for the cause ? HAHAHAHHAHA
you know the ones with the perminant magnets in them ! .... or is that cheetin' ?
heheheheheh
....
Bob........

[candyman55]

Bob,
there ain't no cheetin in this game, if we can post all of the correct facts. Our goal is to make it work, we can only go foreward.

[Bob]

So far.... this is as far as I've gotten....
got the engine ready to run at least.... I think <GRIN>
got a valve and manifold on there that I made up...
...grabed the Old hydroxy gen and hooked it to the charger and within a few seconds the charger popped off.... so I am going to have to have my battery back from the Tractor down at the ranch....or take the one out of the truck... havn't desided which yet hehehehe
...
so I can't even attempt to run it till I get the Hydroxy generator working...
and I'ed like to have a bubbler on it !...
I might switch out the hydroxy cell for the Smack booster.... it has a bubbler on it
and will work better than that old steel cell anyway ! HAHAHAHA
...
 I discovered that I hauled off my connectors to the welder and took them to the ranch already... so I can't use the welder to power it till I bring back my heavy #4 cables
.... you know how it goes.... 2 steps foward 1 step back ...
...
Bob...

[Tink]

Way to go Bob!
What's that thing behind the smack booster? I've got a 3.5hp Honda engine I was thinking of tinkering with. You might just inspire me yet.
Tink

[randy]

what are ya gonna do about that waste spark Bob?

[hydrotinkerer]

I'll bet your going to wish for electric start!

[Bob]

What waste spark Randy <GRIN>....
if it gives me hell I'll shoot it with my shotgun !
....
yah now that ya mention it ... the B&S should fire every time the crank goes 360deg
thats probly on the intake stroke and on compression stroke....
...I guess I'll see if it blows the Hose off the inake UH ?
... Dunno what can be done if thats the case .... Humm
Randy you realy know how to mess a feller up !
HAHAHAHAHHAHA
thanks for the warning !
...
Tink... that black box with the yeller stripes is the new Nifty Super duper Non Rusting
Tough-mate Toolbox  the purdy one got me about 3 weeks ago... she saw me carrying my small metal tackel box with both hands cuz its rusting out and said You need a tool box dear !
and I agreed ! ... when we went into town the next day I JUST HAPPENED TO HAVE FOUND ONE !
sooo... I came home with it ! ...
less than $10 bucks and holds more tools than my old one ! I ain't complaining ! HAHAHHA
bet it splits wide open in the cold though ! HAHAHAH
...

Bob.........

[Bob]

Hydrotinkierer:
I do all ready ! HAHAHA
I'ed settle for a recoil pull rope that I don't have to beg to re wind each time though!
....
Randy has me wondering now ! hehehe I wonder if that thing is going to Burp every time ?
... only one way to tell I guess !
Bob........

[Tink]

Bob,
Not the sinny new tool box, the thing behind the booster, has a handle thing coming out of it. Like a clamp thing. My 'Tuff' thing tool box holds up well in all weather and I can even stand on it to work on my 4" lifted truck.
Tink

[Bob]

OH that....
that handle thing is a clamp to hold the Hydroxy test stand onto the table...
there is another in front...
the Stove pipe looking thing is a Piece of stove pipe I bent to form a rain cover for the pressure switch that I have mounted on the board
... the pressure switch is a water pump pressure switch and it works great with the hydroxy generator ...I set it to 15lbs off and 2lbs on   but could not get it to kick on any sooner than that ...
I had the power going through the 30 amp pump pressure switch and it automatically regilated the pressure for me ... it works great that way !
I won't use that on the Briggs though I don't want to have a pressure canaster type of run...anyone can do that ...I want it to run from the LPM output alone !
... that will tell us allot !
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

  Bob sounds like the moment of truth is near.Hope your experiment proves fruitful,or least taking the first step to running on pure hho.You said at the start of this thread you thought it would take at least 2 LPM to get it started.I'm gonna guess it'll take at least 5 LPM to get the briggs motor to start and sustain an idle.But as they say the proofs in the pudding.

                Make us all proud and good luck Bob.

                                                                Rusty

[crb]

Bob, You might consider a heavy duty electric drill to crank the motor over.

[candyman55]

And you may want to attach some kind of flywheel to the crank, I have one that takes a serpentine belt that came off of a compressor. You could always crank from the bottom.

[Manta]

About welders,

I notice that some of you are using welding sets to provide the amps.  I also noticed in the Machine Mart catalogue that the welders seem to be giving around 48 volt no-load voltage.

So what is the measured voltage when you are using the welders to drive the cell ?

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
 When I use the welder ( havn't in quite a while now)...it puts out over 100vDC ...closer to 150vdc and the voltage stays the same no matter the amp setting... changeing the amp setting just changes the amps ( maybe thats why they call it an AMP selector switch ?)
its indeed rather High voltage for a hydroxy cell but the largest cell I made seams to handle it very well....
unfortionately I have no amp guage that will go to 200 or 300 amps and sense its a 295 amp welder I expect it could reach that amount !
.....
Bob...

[hg2]

 
 
Like manta I'm also wondering about the high voltage,running at 100 volts I would think to have efficiency you'd need to have a cell with almost 50 plates to keep the 2 volt sweet spot for optimum efficiency.Why i think that is because in a doc I read that Bob Boyce started out with 150vdc and 101 plates and then later he found that 81 plates was the magic number for maximum production and that would've been around 1.85 volts(close to around 2 vdc).

[numberonekiwi]

Bob that 1 heck of a mean welder sounds like it would draw from the grid in the order of 30 KW

I remember my dad welding at home sometimes it was 28 - 32 volts depending on the amperage but max power was 80 amps I think but I do know that he could not use the full 80 Amps for to long it would keep popping a 10 Amp Fuse ( 230 volts here ) but I think that was if the fridge upstairs was running at the same time

Your welder could pop the substation fuse -

( Bob puts on his armoured clothing to stop the neighbours shooting him ) LOL

Is this welder 3 phase 440V ?

[Bob]

Nope Just a standard 220vac 295 AcDc Arc welder... I bought it about 25 years ago at Costco
in Reno Nevada... it has served me well all these years !
...
when I was running my Big cell on it I started out at 35amps dc and worked my way up
I ran it for some time on 35 amps and it worked very well ... at 55amps the cell was getting purdy warm... and output was an easy 4.5LPM (measured) I went to 75 amps and got the Hose in the bottle and all the lights everywhere went out !...
it tripped the 30amp breaker on the power pole...... I thought well thats silly to have a 30 amp breaker on a welder... what was I thinking??.... OH I remember... thats the only breaker I had ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
...
anyway after resetting the breaker I went and turned off the welder and checked the cables I was useing and they were getting warm #4 size... at 75 amps it looked to almost double the output of the 4.5LPM but I can't be sure of that.
anyway I desided one breaker tripping is enough and went in and re set all the clocks, and listened to my Kid complain because she was on the internet at the time downloading something important to her... OOOPS !
...
anyway... that tought me that there is no substitute to POWER ! ...
...
Bob......

[Cowboy]

I've been looking into making my own wind generator lately.  Perhaps instead of attaching an alternator to the mower engine, you could make a small version of the windmill generator...  No brushes to create friction, just a little bit of magnetism.

[Bob]

Cowboy ...
You can buy about a dozen bar magnets and mount them on a plywood disk...
have a berring flange bolted to the center and an axel... insted of a hand crank ,put a v belt pully and turn it with a large prop in the wind...
a Coil of wire or a Coil off a lawn mower engine... will get you thousands of volts
and more than plunty to kill yourself with... but Rectified down into useable power should not be that hard...
...I don't remember the name of that generator but it will make a Bright arc about 1 inch long  with enough punch to light your EYEBALLS up for a long time !
their deadly, but fun as hell to play with ! HAHAHAHA
...
I've been going to build one for decades now ...but never have got the magnets needed...
something like that on my water wheel could be converted to 110vac with out too much truble ! and power my entire house !
but the speed is critical. for house hold appliances ! so its probly best to drop it down to 12vdc and power a big inverter !
...
this same method can be done so easily by useing an Old wind mill top attaching magnets to the outer rim and have a coil of wire close to the magnets...
you can get AC out of it by alternateing the magnets poles... and then rectify it to DC
or many other things... it is one ot the Most powerfull generators a person can build
and building it is more or less childs play... the electronics arn't but the generator part is super simple....
take something that spins and put magnets on it and put a coil of wire by the magnets  and hang on !
..
its a thought... or wild idea anyway ! HAHAHHA
Bob.......

[Bob]

Hg2...
 on your guess about how much Hydroxy gas it will take to run that engine....
I agree completely with you on the 5LPM.... 2LPM should make it idle though... thats what I was thinking at the time......
I just wish I had a good charger here and another 12vdc battery to try it with...
because I keep putting off going down to the ranch ...that means allot of work ! HAHAHAHA
...I'll probly go down friday anyway... tomarrow it should rain here...UGH !
...
Bob....

[hg2]

  Honestly Bob I think it's going to take every bit of 5 LPM just to idle it.

[LTCFISHER]

Bob,
You get that brigg's running?
I just ran a 1/4inch sst tube right up to the valve intake to my test engine
no carb. 5HP Briggs. Keep us up to date on your little project there.

[Bob]

Howdy LTCFisher !
I havn't touched it all week... had too many other projects going...
no battery unless I take it out of the truck ( which I may do tomarrow!) so I havn't been able to get Hydroxy gas to it.
...
I have a ball valve hooked to the intake and a hose barb on the back end of the ball valve is all I have... should be interesting to see what my Smack booster does for it..
I think I'll hook it up tomarrow and see if I can get it to run !
...
I seriously don't think it will be a problem to get the thing to run on Hydroxy gas...
just plumb it in and give it a yank !  sense Hydroxy gas explodes so easily it should be a snap to start ! HAHAHAHHA
... I am wondering if the waste spark thing is going to give me problems though !
...
I guess we shall see !
..
Bob.......

[Bob]

Ok, here's the plan of action for tomorrow...
I hope to test the Smack booster while hooked to my truck battery and 10 amp charger
...
if the output is good I will hook it to the B&S 5hp and give it a yank and see what it does!
 ... the reason I will use that Hydroxy gen and not my Old Big cell is because of the container their in.... the Smack booster has a Pop off top and a bubbler.. the old big cell has a screw on top and no bubbler at all... so to be safe I won't use the big one!...
...
it will probly take me most of the day to get the cell hooked up and working good
... When I get the engine running I will try to take some pictures but I doubt you will be able to tell if the engine is running or not...and My camara has no Movie capabilities at all.....so you'll have to take my word for it I guess ! HAHAHAHHAH
...
...
I have a few concerns in doing this....
one is with the Hydroxy generator running at full blast and the engine running at idle or slightly above I doubt the engine will keep up with the production so it will probly Pop the top off the generator because of too much pressure... which isn't bad  but it shouldn't
be by the exhost if its going to do that as it may well go BOOM...
so I better move the generator to the other end of the table. <GRIN>
...
waste spark may well foil my plans to run the engine on 100% hydroxy  if this is the case it will probly pop the lid off the bubbler every time I pull it through
and probly blow the hose off the ball valve as well.
...
if it does that... chances are its not going to work at all with that engine.
and I'll be back to square one ... but rest assured I will report what happens good or bad !
...
Bob....

...

[Bob]

Well....
 Here's the results so far....
it backfires realy nicely ... and LOUD ! my ears are still ringing! HEHEHHEHE
...My smack booster is barely putting out any Hydroxy gas at the moment...
I even added some KOH to get the amp draw up but it changed nothing that I could see...
I was getting some hydroxy gas though, and I got a few chugs out of the engine when everything was just right.......but it would not sustain... I even tried quickstart to get it going but that didn't work eather....
...
on about the 5th pull after hearing the bubbler bubbling it did a backfire and blew the pop off cap some 200ft in the air... a bout 5 seconds later the cap landed !... needless to say it was loud ... but at least all the dogs stopped barking in the neighborhood !
HAHAHAHHA
... after that I added more water to the bubbler so to displace the hydroxy gas a bit more
and the following KaBOOMS weren't as bad ! having to hunt down my safty cap is a pain though !  HAHAHAHHAHA
 as I was pulling it through it was trying to fire before top dead center and I am sure thats the problem... as I could hear the engine struggleing trying to run but being stopped because of the ignition being way too soon......
so I need to change the timeing on the engine ...if I can go that far...
it needs to fire about 2 to 5 degrees after top dead center and then it will run.
but this way will just destroy the engine if I can get it to run... sounded like someone takeing a hammer to the piston when it tried to fire !
a very metalic Wham... whamm...  futttt... and it usually wound up going backeards!
not good at all !
....
so... timeing is a must to change.
...
also I am thinking that I might have to open the air way... even with the hydroxy hose off and squirting  quickstart in the hose barb it was very reluctant to fire up...but it did eventually... for a few seconds, just on quickstart.
...I noticed as I turned it over slowly by hand that it sucked very hard on the bubbler...
it is after all directly plumbed to it ! (DUH!!!!) the way I have it now with no outside air at all puts the bubbler under max vacume... and I'm fairly certain that will suck the water right out of the generator into the engine !
...
so I think I am going to have to add outside air and let the engines vacume suck in the hydroxy gas normially... a small 3/8" pipe T should accomplish that for me
...
that was actually the first real Big KABOOOM I have hurd with the Hydroxy gas and brother it was loud ! sounded like my 12 guage shotgun going off !
....
so... till I find a 3/8" pipe T and change the timeing to TDC I'm at a standstill !
but doing that should almost guaretee the engine to run... I don't think the waste spart is going to be a problem as it did chugg about 4 times in a row on Hydroxy gas alone
if the waste spart was going to be a problem it should pop back every revoultion...
...although it did alot of that I think with a lean mixture it will run fine with waste spark... not positive... but thats what I think at the moment!
....
Bob.......


...

[randy]

I've heard mention of that waste spark, but theoretically it should occur when both valves are closed, I figured you'd have to retard the timing for 100% with that small displacement it should go at 1 deg. after TDC, I THINK, getting some weird results from the improved cell, got a pair of em wired in series, only pulling 5 amps at 46 deg. F but output is 1 LPM on the dot??? it's mounted in the truck, did LPM test with engine running, right now it's hooked up to a charger, trying to warm it up and see what I get, on the bench it wanted to run at 12 amps fully warmed, output was 2 liters in 47 seconds at 115 deg.

[Tink]

Bob,
I don't know where to post this so here it is:
I ran the truck through a tank of gas w/o HHO and checked the spark plugs and they looked better, a little lean, white on the tips and nice milk choclate brown on the base. I went to take out the metal condoms and found that the one before the CAT was missing. That must have been the rattling I heard a few days ago. I think it discintigrated. The other one was intact and looking good. I removed it. I ran the smack booster for 60 miles and it got up to 180 degrees and was only putting  out 23amps when I pulled in to the drive way. I was only getting 1LPM. I gotta make some Randy Cells. O, yea I forgot to mention, I rerouted the HHO to the air cleaner and will see if that makes a difference. I'm planning to get with the local (30 miles away) muffler guy about a new CAT and see if he can help me get that darn CEL to go away. I'll keep you posted as to any change in performance by relocating the HHO input. Sounds like you are having too much fun with that B&S!
Tink

[Bob]

HAHAH I have to admit Shooting that pop off cap 200ft in the air was kind'a fun !
 KABOOM 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, clunk ahhh its over there !  HAHAHAHAH
...
I seriously doubt that the metal condom has gone away... its probly laying in the catalitic converter... tell the guy at the muffler shop if he finds a short piece of pipe in there ya want it back ! HAHAHAHAHHA
...
it don't sound like youe smack booster is doing you justice Tink... eather build some Randy cells or a Dry cell and be done with it !
...
thats what I'ed do !
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

You'r right Bob I gotta build those Randy Cells, I have all the parts just gota get the time to do it. My CAT doesn't rattle anymore so I do think it either blew through or disinigrated. I did also experience a wierd burp kinda of hesitation for a second on the way to work the other day too. At one LPM I'm probably not overcoming the drain on the engine to show any improved MPG. So it looks like Randy's ne design (MKII) is the way to go?
Tink

[Manta]

If this engine sparks on every revolution then the waste spark will be on the overlap stroke when both valves could be slightly open.  This overlap helps with scavenging the old exhaust gas from the cylinder,  but could be allowing the hydroxy to ignite too early thus blowing the top off.

Manta

[Bob]

Exactly Manta !
...
Tink... when you build your Randy cells be real sure to drill the 1/4" hole in the center of the width of the washer... 
otherwize they won't stack evenly... I'ed go with the MKII version myself
2 of the MKII cells in series have given Randy truble getting enough amprage through the cells  just like the problem you had with 2 Smack boosters in series
... the original cells didn't have this problem till you got to 3 cells in series, so its fairly safe to say because of this alone that the New MKII is 1/3 more efficient than the old version...
...
build ONE cell Tink... and then put it in a big container ( unlike Randy is doing)
when Running one cell it will get Hot just like the smack booster did but  you can cut back on the amprage driveing it and still attain output... something the smackbooster didn't do very well at all.
..
remember there are diferent sizes of holes in the MKII cell and its imperitive that they all be centered in the width of the metal  and in line with each other  CENTERED on the washer....  by that I mean both holes should line up on the center line if you put a stright edge on the center of the holes... center of the 1/4" hole ,center of the big washer hole , and center of the 3/8" hole.   
Pluss they must be in the center of the metal between the big hole of the washer and the outer edge of the washer... just devide that width in half and drill the hole.
...
I scribed a Center line on the first one I did and then divided the width of the metal with my  divider ruler... scribed a line on the half way point on each side and then drilled my holes
I then used that one to pattern all the rest in a stack of 11... it worked great but I had to be careful to make sure my drill bit was centered in the HOLE ! HAHAHAHAH
 on the MKII every other washer has 2- 3/8" holes in it so that washer is Isolated from eather post.... thats the netural plate...
Pay very close attention to the placement of the S.S.Shims they will confuze the hell out of you if you don't pay real close attention !.... I stack my washers,shims o-rings and nilon insulators up in a stack prior to assembly so I know without a doubt where I am at all times ..... and I still screw-up !
...
take your time and do the assembly slow ! if you doubt if you put in the O rings on that last cell ...back up and check !!!! otherwize you'll have to tear it appart after your done !...
its a real challenge to keep it stright in your head ! but you can do it !
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Well, that B&S just threw me a curve I was not expecting !!!!!
its probly the ONLY engine on the entire property that has no points in it...
its fired by the magneto ONLY....
so to change the timing I have to eather move the pickup coil or make a additional slot in the flywheel to change the timing ....
that presents a big problem as My Mill/lathe has no way of making an inside key-way
and an outside key on the crankshaft is more or less out of the question due to weakening the shaft....
..
I could punch a 1/2 Moon shape next to the original keyway that would allow the flywheel to rotate the 10 or so degrees backwards to  get the piston past TDC before the mag fires
but I know from experience that a busted out or widened Keyway  will eat a key in nothing flat !
...
so I'm stuck at the moment on how to proceed !
...
moveing the pickup coil will mean a Hole in the cooling shroud which I'ed rather not do...
... I was thinking of drilling and tapping a 1/4x28 hole at the 10degree retarder mark and just lock a case hardened 1/4x28 bolt in there in the original key way...
this seams to be the best method to me but I doubt it would last very long...
might be better to use another engine ! HAHAHAHAH
the one on the Rotiller has points so its easy to change the timeing on it !
swapping engines shouldn't be that big a deal and that would give my rotortiller more power
too....
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Bob,
Thanks for the advice I'll be sure to follow what you said. And dumb me I had that smack booster in reverse polarity! Now that I changed the neg. and pos. it makes more amps quicker but still not producing like it was a month ago. Also the generator engine I was going to play with is also fired by magneto. It's a Robin 18hp twin. I wonder if it has a waste spark. I noticed the last time I had it apart the magnetos had a slight adjustment. The bolt that holds them on goes through an elongated slot. I wonder if that would vary the timing.
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

Bob if the flywheel doesn't have to go that far you can get or make an offset keyway. I don't know how far you have to go but they are good for a few degrees in timing.

[Bob]

Hydrotinkierer:
 I'm not positive what the timing is on a Briggs 5hp but I suspect about 8degrees BTDC
but it might be as far as 12degrees...( seriously doubt that)
thats too far for an off set key way... I thought of that already ...thank you for the thought though! ...
not sure I want to risk destroying a good 5hp B&S for this experiment though ! HAHAHAHA
... I think  I'll just swap engines with the Rototiller , it has a 3.5B&S on it that I'm positive has points in it as they have given me truble in the past a few times and I had to re set them....
having the 5hp on the rototiller would be  better but it realy doesn't need the power increase...it already tosses me about when it hits a rock Now !
...
so I think the answer is swap engines ! both of these engines are like new fire up on the first pull once warmed up... and purr like kittens when running...
... I seriously doubt that I can move the timeing very far though probly only 5 degrees or so...but perhaps it will be enough to alow it to run on hydroxy gas...
and being a smaller engine might make it easier to get running sense my Smack booster isn't putting out so well any more ( setting to long...needs cleaned!)
..
so I might head down to the ranch early tomorrow and swap motors and finish up my tractor work down there ...
I think the carb plate manifold/ball-valve will bolt right on the other engine , if not it will be very close!
...
I was dreaming about it last night and the answer is a 1/4" hole in the 3/8" pipe to alow it to suck in some air.... I think that will alow some of the vacume to disipate and not crush the bubbler or suck the generator dry ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Tink :
I don't know a thing about those Robins engines... your guess is better than mine
look at it and figure out how it works FIRST before you tear it appart ! HAHAHAHAH
...
18hp is a fairly big'en but should be no more dificult than what I am doing !
... I will say this... without changeing the spark on that 5hp B&S it will NOT run on Hydroxy gas.... so it has tought me something !
...yanking it through and hearing it fire was like a Whamm Whammm Whamm of metal to metal
way to far of pre-ignition !  but it did fire in succession, problem was it stopped the movement instead of speeding it up !..
...
I am now throughly convinced that when running 100% hydroxy gas in my truck I will definately have to change the timeing.... so far I have not done any timeing changeing at all...but the B&S 5hp changed its tone when I tried to get the Hydroxy gas to run in it...
from the sweet placid little reliable engine to one of  if it runs it will tear itself off my table !!!!... advanceing the timeing should ofcorse change that !
it should fire at 2 degrees After top dead center... ( my guess anyway)
because the hydroxy gas explodes so much faster than gas air mix, any advanced timing will surely try to make it run backwards !
anyway... thats my theory...swap engines and try it again !
HAHAHAHA
Bob...

[hg2]

  Bob it's been a while(about a year) and I can't recall where I saw it ,but a guy was trying to run a briggs motor on 100 % hydroxy and had the same problem with the timing.His plans to retard the timing more than factory,was by further elongating the adjustment holes on the pickup.I didn't however see if that worked out for him or not.

[Bob]

Hg2:
thanks for the info... but that won't work in this case...
the most I could get by that method is about 1 degree 2 at an absoulte max ! <GRIN>
...
I'll swap engines... sounds like a better move to me anyway.
 I gott'a run into town and take Grandma out to dinner today... the Wife and Kid are up at the other grandmas  so  I think Mom and I will gp party ! HAHAHAHHA ( well go to the Hometown buffet and pig-out! thats a party in my book !)
...
...
I'll go to the ranch in a bit and bring back the rototiller
...
other than that I think today is a wasted day for getting anything done ! HAHHAHA
...
Bob......

[Cowboy]

Hey Bob,

You're talking about drilling new holes to move the coil, so that means you have room to move it.  Why not just make a braket from some sheet metal, mount the braket in the original holes and move the coil along the braket to the right spot?  Cheap and easy...

-Cowboy

[Bob]

Howdy Cowboy !...
 ummm well actually I wasn't.... but thats ok... I thought of that idea earlier but gave up on the idea because its easier to use the 3.5hp instead of the 5hp HAHAHAHAHHA
... I have some flat stock and I could probly move the coil over 2" to 3" following the curve of the flywheel, but it will have to be a very strong bracket... with a leg going to the head bolt or something to keep the magneto within 25 thousandths of the flywheel and yet not allow it to touch...
 but that would mean a hole in the shroud and that would alow needed air for cooling to excape unless completely closed off... so all in all its more truble than its worth !
especially sense I brought the rototiller home with me tonight <GRIN>
I gave it 3 pulls and it fired up after setting for at the least 30 days without being ran
and the 5hp is the same way , so 5hp on the rototiller makes more sense than 3.5 hp does anyway...
and sense the 3.5has points in it it should be fairly easy to get it timed to accept the hydroxy gas.
....

I got a Milage reading on the truck tonight without the Hydroxy unit on it... its getting 27.23MPG
now WITHOUT the Hydroxy generator on it .... that is Up from 22 to 24MPG  so I guess the Matt Valve
and my Air sensor adjustment are working !
...
I didn't notice any change in gas milage when I put on the O2 Sensor Condom when I first put it on but I realy didn't run it long without the Hydroxy generator on there to be certain.
and something tells me I should have noticed some change.... that is if the o2 sensor is realy doing anything to help improve the gas milage Normially !... but no change there at all.
... kind'a Odd.....
...
but Now I'm getting 27.2MPG ALL THE TIME in normal driveing... thats a good improvement over the standard milage.... and Yes Tink I amagon my plugs are ghost white too ! but I havn't checked them yet
... might in the next few days ! I'll let ya know!
...
So my conclusion is this... even with the Miserable Output I was getting out of my super dirty Randy cells it was improveing my gas milage by quite a bit from 32 to 38MPG  with the cell on  in its dirty condition !...I'm guessing at 1/2LPM max!
...
so that should be encouraging to you fellers that are fighting low output...even LOW output Helps a great deal !   say 27 to 35MPG is a 8MPG gain... in the worst possable case senerio !
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Well Howdy AGAIN !
I got the 2 Briggs & Stratton engines swapped a bit ago...
got the 5hp on the rototiller and now because of the setup on that engine I even have a throttle on it ! WOOT ! its definately stronger... I think it can pull the car ! HAHAHAHA
( i have 2 tires on the front to take the place of the tiller blades in transporting the thing then I swap them out for the tiller blades... better than pushing it ! HAHAHAH
...
the little 3.5 hp I now have on the bench... and I already got the  make shift hydroxy carb on it... ( ballvalve on a pipe welded to a manifold flange is all it is,with a hose barb on it hehehe)
...
so I'm ready to test it once again, although I havn't changed the timeing I want to be positive it won't run this way first... then I'll change the timeing.
I'ed have to pull the battery out of the truck to test it now and I don't realy like doing that... so I think on the next trip to the ranch I'll bring back my battery that I have been testing the cells with all along... as the tractor work is about done now.
...
thats all I have to report on the progress so far... so nothing realy new !
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

Hummmmm...
 I suspected that the timeing wouldn't be able to be moved far enough.... I was right.
 I have it set to as close to Top dead center as I can get it and its still at least 4 or 5 degrees BTDC...
  first pull with this little beastie got 5 chuggs out of it   and many pulls later I learned to WAIT for the Hydroxy generator to catch up....  so I can get it to try to run almost every try now... problem is their ain't enough Hydroxy gas to run it...!
...
obviously the Smack booster is just putting out a tiny amount... I can hear it bubbleing in quick spirts in the bubbler but Looking at it it looks like its only 1/4LPM at best!
... so even this engine is going to need more than that !
I thought at one time it was going to take off and run... but it only made it to about the 8th chugg before it quit....
Obviously I have to do something about making more Hydroxy gas... I do think 2LPM would run it though its almost got enough to idle now... and I know its less than 1/4LPM
...
so.... its on to the next phase of the test....get the hydroxy generator working the way it should !
...
 It did back fire twice on me and I had to hunt up the Pop off cap again !<GRIN>
( at least I know its working right!)
 both yesterday and today  i never did pop the generators cap... the bubbler stopped it each time!
...
...I am convinced with enough gas it will run now... the timeing is close enough to top dead center that it will run I think... although it is far from TDC , the other one must have been firing at something like 15 degrees BTDC... as it popped the cap many times in comparison.
...
 I used the truck battery again , on the charger and swapped polarity a few times trying to get it to clean itself up a bit.... but to no avail

...
I have a feeling its so dirty it can't produce anything... like my 3 Randy Cells were
...
 I THINK I'll go out there and see if I can get the amps up... if so the production should come up as well and alow the engine to run !
...
I double checked the amp draw... was at 8amps , raised it to 10amps and the charger snapped off ( typical) with the truck battery in line it only registers 3 amp draw though.
 production is more ...no doubt about that , but still not enough
...
gott'a do something diferent !

Bob......

[hydrotinkerer]

Here you go Bob I thought you would be interested in this. The part you want to read starts at post #13. It is the start of running a 3hp lawnmower.

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=51&page=2

[Bob]

thank you for the info.
it said he got his 3.5hp lawnmower to run about 2200RPM on 4LPM (3 cells)
but finally got full RPM out of 5 cells each putting out 1.5LPM each
....
also that he drilled and tapped a hole in the exhisting carb ( that was Kapoot!) and created a vacume port on the carb body... (easy enough to do!)
...
I've given this idea allot of thought because I was thinking about it for the last week or so
because it just seams counter productive to try and block off all the air completely ...like I have it now ! ...
...
he also did not say anything about changeing the timeing, and I know from personal experience that with these engines you cannot adjust the timeing to TDC...the best you can get is close... but even with that they should still run... My engine ran for a second or so today... but would not sustain... so I know it will run...  but how much Hydroxy gas will it take ?
 ....
I was thinking it would take much less Hydroxy gas to run the motor myself but sense someone else has done it already ...I guess he should Know UH !
4LPM for 2200RPM seams like a bunch of gas to me .... like double of what it SHOULD take
... maybe I got a desimal place off or something in my figures ! HAHAHAHAHHAHA
.........
so IF I learn from the other guys experiments it tells me I need as much hydroxy gas as I had on my Truck !  or all 3 Randy Cells pulling 60amps giveing 2LPM each.. in order to get it to run
....
and I don't have that capability at the moment !
I don't have the cells, and I don't have the amprage...
so this is going to have to go on the back burner for a while.
...
though if I get a Cornish generator going ( still working on makeing one) I might try
running the engine on that ! hehehehe
...
...
Dan wells also made a 5HP honda motor run on Hydroxy gas from his Tero cell, but that was useing a balloon to act as a storage device... and it ran till the balloon was deflated.
...
so its not impossable to do... infact a few people have done it already !
...
..
.
 Anyway... snow is about to hit here anyway, and when it does its cabin fever time because its too darn cold to go outside for anything ! HAHAHAHA
....guess I should wrap it up till spring for now !
...
thanks for the info !
that has helped allot !
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

Bob, I ran a 4hp briggs on hydroxy back in the summer just playing around and it took 4lpm and I had alot of trouble getting it started.  I am able to put out 12 lpm now and cannot get my truck to even idle on it.  Its sad but I am just being honest.  I am going to be putting out some mpg numbers here before long I hope they are positive results.

[scratch1676]

what do you guys think about the old popping johnny tractor the one with the big heavy counter weight on the side.  It would run at a low rpm but had very major torque.  I think it would do alot of work for a little lpm of hydroxy gas.

[Bob]

Howdy Scratch !
 yah one of those old time motors would be a blast to play with, and probly use less fuel than a 5hp briggs ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Scratch your truck is has a  2.4 liter engine in it if I remember right don't it ?
 and if thats the case something your doing is keeping it from running on 12LPM
the reason I say that is Candyman ran his 4Liter engine for 1min 8 seconds on a 12liter balloon of hydroxy gas.... your engine is smaller and should take less not more...
things just don't add up here !
...
According to my calculations it should take only 2LPM per 100cc of displacement to run...
if and only if everything is perfect. well a 5hp engine is just over 200cc so 4LPM is right on the button for it.
... but you have to remember that a Lawnmower engine or a Briggs & Stratton engine are about 50% less fuel efficient than any car.. their "L HEAD" configuration and low compression coupled with the Super bad carberators and no spark advance at all, make them a wonder that they even RUN...yet alone make horsepower !
 But your Truck ain't like that !  bigger no doubt but if you compare engine displacement
between a Known running B&S engine and your truck  you can easily mutably your findings by a factor of at least 2 to your advantage ...
...
 I dunno... maybe it will take more Hydroxy gas to run my truck than 12LPM anything is possable... but I seriously doubt it
with 12LPM if you can't get your truck to at least IDLE  something is terrably wrong !
like no spark to the plugs or something !  I just can't see how it cannot at least Idle it !
.... but then I am an incureable Optimast when it comes to things like this and do have a tennancy to maximize the ease and minimize the dificulties ! <GRIN>
..
with my B&S 3.5 out there I discovered that it would run if I had enough Hydroxy gas going to it... but my Smack booster is not putting out hardly any LPM at all now... so I desided
to give it a rest till I can get the time to get decent LPM to it to test with
... and the Dog chewed up my 2Liter test Bottle so I can't do a LPM test on it the way it is! HAHAHAHAHHA...I'll find a 1Liter bottle around here somewhere but it seams everything is conspireing against me lately  HAHAHAHA!
...
  I made a fitting for the carb adapter for the little B&S yesterday which will allow
me to inject the Hydroxy gas into the pipe after the ball valve where it should be
which will help no end in stretching the Hydroxy gas by alowing some air into the cylinder
at the same time.   this will  no doubt make the fuel mix leaner but I can adjust that by the ball valve... so it should work to my advantage that way....
.... besides I can give it a shot of quick start to get it to run a bunch easier !
...
..
I will probably run to the ranch today and get some work done down there, and hopefully
I'll remember to bring back my long #4 cables so I can use the Arc welder to power the Hydroxy cell for the test bench !... much higher power than my truck battery, without the risk of killing my transportation !
...
Bob.....


 

[candyman55]

Bob,
You may want to put a counterweight on the shaft of that engine. A round steel plate whould work nicely once you ger er runnin it should help carry it through the stroke and keep it runnin at low rpm.

[Bob]

Yes that it would ! I have a large 8" or 12" impeller I made for a snow thrower... which threw snow great... the problem is getting the snow too it !
...
it was attached to the 5hp and realy helped it continue to turn through... but I don't think I need it
for this exp... as I am wanting at least 2000 to 2500RPM... to run an altenator <GRIN>
so its not like I'm trying to idle the engine at 100rpm.... like the old engines ran at !
 I'ed love to have one of those Old Saw mill engines with a 4" bore and 18" stroke ! HAHAHAHA
and 6' flywheel ! HAHAHAH what a Kick that'ed be  ! I'ed have to start it every day just to hear it run !...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

well I am just now hooking up my pwm's on the motor and I should be through with it except for trying to make everything look really neat and organized.  when I hooked up the cells and ran at 12 lpm the truck pulls down some from the alternaor strain and I have a device hooked up to cut back the fuel going to the motor and I was able to just about close off the fuel at idle on the motor but if you tried to push the gas pedal it would fall on its face.  I did post a production video on you tube if you would like to see.  go to youtube.com search scratch1676 and its the only video that will come up.

[Bob]

thanks I'll do that Scratch !
 when I have some extra time and able to wait an hour for the down load !
You tube is nice and all that but its not like you can just DL the video and then watch it that would work fantastic... but they don't do that ...you have to set there and let it stager all the way through the complete video and THEN poke the replay and then you get to see it ... believe me dial-up still SUX!
...
HAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob

[scratch1676]

yeah dialup does bite the big one.  might be easier just to say you looked at it then dont.  Ha ha ha

[Bob]

yah but that'ed be lieing and I don't do that unless I have to <GRIN> it don't set well with my scrupples.... er what ever ya call it ! HAHAHAH
...
I'll get to it probly later tonight.... when everyone is asleep ! HAHAHH
....
So how did you test or try to run the truck on 12LPM ? you say you have a way to control the fuel input?
whats that and how did ya do that ? sounds like something I need to do !
...
I have a "Matt Valve" on my pickup which has really helped lean out the running but it doesn't give me real precise control on the fuel.... at least if it does I'm not aware of it ! HA !
...
please tell me again what engine you have in the truck ..as I can't remember and Don't feel like reading for 6 hours to find out .... I know ya told us but I can't keep stright who has what engine anymore ...or your guys location eather ! HAHAHA!
...
Kim was asking where Tink was Located and I Told her New Mexico... I think... but I know Tink has a California Model truck er was.... <GRIN>
...
man it bites getting Old... seams if I miss sleep, I get a rebound of the CRS desiese....( CRS=Cant Remember Shit!)
HAHAHAHA
...
I did remember to bring home my #4 cable from the ranch yesterday though ...so maybe I can get some output out of that smack booster tomorrow !  and try running that small Briggs
....45to 50 amps made it put out over 4LPM last time I tried it ...
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Yessir ! that is some IMPRESSIVE Output !
Well done Scratch1676 !
....
thanks for the video it is worth the wait to view that much output...
1.8liters in 11seconds (on the consertive side, I just counted ,didn't use my stop watch!)
...
 1.8liters per 5.5 seconds....
60sec in a min, so 5.5/60=10.909x1.8= 19.632LPM  at 110amps  or so....
...
Many of you guys out there are looking for a HIGH OUTPUT cell arangement ...well Scratch Has one ! HAHAHAHHA
...
Scratch could you post how to build your cell ... you know a page or so on the dimentions
of the plates, hookup method and all that in the Hydroxy generator Plans section PLEASE!
I amagon you already have a few pics of it in the construction proccess
so that should make it very easy for ya !
...
I am sure Many will thank you for your effort !
I know I would sure appreaciate it ! <GRIN>
....
I do think your right.... 80 amps per cell and that puppy will realy start putting out the Hydroxy gas!
....
After seeing that Output and you said that you tried to idle the truck on it and it wouldn't quite do it.... MAN SOMETHING WAS Wrong... that should be enough to reach about 3000rpm in your truck....
... I think you need to test it again !
HAHAHAHAH
Bob.

[Bob]

HAHHA man I'm still in amazement! 19LPM on 110amps...
2 Dry cells that are 12"x12" plates...dunno how many plates though per cell
....
You know Scratch I think you are way ahead of the rest of us guys.... must have cost you a fourtune to build those things but obviously it was worth it !
... if I had that unit in the back of my truck I wouldn't have to buy gasoline ever again!
HAHAHAHAHHA
NO ....REALLY !
...
<GRIN>
Bob.......

[hg2]

....
After seeing that Output and you said that you tried to idle the truck on it and it wouldn't quite do it.... MAN SOMETHING WAS Wrong... that should be enough to reach about 3000rpm in your truck....
... I think you need to test it again !
HAHAHAHAH
Bob.

  I'm not one to say I told you so Bob. But I told you so!!!  HEHEHEHEH

[Bob]

HAHAHAH hg2: you nut !
ahh give him a chance he can do it ... I know I can !(my engine is smaller I think !)
...
Look... Randy ran his truck ( no gas to the carb and carb ran dry) on 4LPM and it ran fine
a bit rough at first but he got it running quite well... he then added more hydroxy gas and it would not idle any more it raced to 3600RPM ( after turning on the gas to the carb again)
could not get the idle to come down... he was feeding the Hydroxy gas into the intake manifold at the time.   
...
but definately at 4LPM he was idleing his 2.5liter Dodge Ram 4x4...
it wouldn't take throttle or it died so it was just barely enough to sustain the idle.
... thats why I know 4LPM will surely run my Briggs and Stratton engine!...
...
there is a Thousand diferent reports of diferent Quanties needed to sustain an idle in a car...or engines for that matter.... 99% of them are way to rich but they run anyway...
Hydroxy gas is not like gasoline/air mix... with gasoline/air you will "FLOOD" the engine if it gets too rich... hydrogen OR Hydroxy gas won't do that at all, because it has a  better ignition curve than gasoline... Hydrogen will ignite from 100:1 air to hydrogen all the way up to 100% pure... it will bang all the time....
so when people say they ran their car at idle at 12LPM I believe they did, but the question is what was the Hydroxy/air ratio at the time ?!?!
Hydrogen itself woll go to 100:1 leanness and still ignite somewhere around 125:1 it will fail to ignite.... so that means that Hydroxy gas H 2 0  will go to about 50:1 and still ignite...

so if you figure that you can run Hydroxy gas at 45:1 in leanness and still have it run well  you only have to have about 1/2 that of Gasoline/air by VOLUME which is optimum at 14:1 ratio...
so if you go by VOLUMES you can see that it doesn't take all that much... Just remember that you don't need to fill the displacement each time the intake valve opens and that a small bang is all you need to keep it turning and you'll understand its not that much Hydroxy gas.... Currently even that, is more than I can produce at the moment!
...
if I had 19LPM I could run my truck on 100% hydroxy gas ...of that I am very sure....
I've done the figures too many times to doubt it !
...thats why I say Scratch needs to do his test again because something wasn't right !
unless he has a Hudge V8 in the truck the figures just don't match !
...
FWIW
<GRIN>
Bob......

[hg2]

  Bob I was just ruffling your feathers a little,I don't doubt that 19 LPM will run your
Briggs motor and I even think it'll rev up a little with that much hydroxy.Sorry I kinda went off topic because I know this is the briggs thread,and I should've said that the "I told you so" was just regarding Scratchs truck running on 19 LPM.I hope Scratch does has a V8 in that truck because he's gonna need it to crank that many amps out of an alternator.

[Bob]

HAHAH no problem it doesn't matter what topic its in its good to hear from ya !
even if you are a doubting-Thomas !...
yah if 19LPM can't run a briggs I'ed give it up completely ! HAHAHAH
I'm sure it will run my 2.4Liter R-22 engine in the truck though
because from my calculations all its going to take is 15LPM to run it to 3500RPM
...and I rairly run the RPM that high except to shift.
...and even then the throttle is never past 1/2 way down...
ofcorse comeing up the long steep hill headding home here the throttle is burried and its in 4th not 5th to pull the hill but RPM are usually about 3000RPM max even then....
...
I expect that that Hill will be the breaking point though... if it will run short on Hydroxy gas it will be there and I'll have to crawl up the hill in 1st ! HAHAHAHA
....
but we shall seeeeee !
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

first off, the briggs and stratton motor will have no problem running at any rpm on that much hydroxy.  I will give you a complete pictured detailed instruction of the cells,size,gaskets,holes,pumps,alternators,displays,pwm's.batteries,wire size bubbler layout,ect  but i have to get thru with this pwm problem first.  I tried to push 60 amps each thru the cells and I looked at the pwm and the solder was dropping off the bottom of it.  I quess it got hot (duh).  I beefed it back up with solder and put a bigger fan and a bigger heatsink and it seams to be better now.  I wanted to put the silicone over the circuit like you said bob but now I am thinking that the heat wont pull off the unit as well with all that silicone on it.  what do you guys think?

[hg2]

  Scratch I don't know if this idea is feasible or not for helping to cool your pwm.A while back I saw where someone that was trying to find a way to keep his smack cell cool(imagine that)and came up with the idea to build a duct around the the front of the filter box without restricting the air flow and use the air being drawn in by the motor to cool the cell.He stated that it lowered the cell temp enough that it wasn't overheating any longer.So I don't see why you couldn't adapt the same idea to keep the pwm cool,you just need to make sure the pwm isn't so hot it's dripping solder still so you won't have chance of a fire. The guy used metal flashing he got from Home Depot and used rivets to build and mount the duct work.

 

[Bob]

Yes I agree, the Silicone will hold in a large amount of heat
so much infact that it may verywell bring you right back to the same heat that you had with the smaller heat sink... so think about it long and hard FIRST !
...
Yah I've no doubt that a B&S can run on that hydge amount of Hydroxy gas...even a 20hp
would have extra !
...
when you get the time to draw up a diagram or post photos Scratch just go ahead and post them in the "Plans Section" and I will Lock them so no other posts can be posted after word
I have to do this to keep it clean, unfortionately, no other way to put it in order!<grin>
....
Thank you !
Bob........

[scratch1676]

ok we will do that.  Today I am going to try and get the pwm's installed on the truck.  I am going to mount the boards with fans behind the seat I quess to start with and run the adjustment knobs into a seperate box to the dash with digital amp and volt meters to monitor the cells.

[Bob]

Scratch !

Kool ! should be a nice looking setup when your done !
...
any hints on How you tried to run the engine on 12LPM or more and couldn't even get it to idle...
that one has me Spooked ! I'ed like to know more about that !
like what size is the engine ( I know ya said but I can't remember!)
how you turned off the fuel going to the fuel injectors,
 and how you fed the hydroxy gas to the engine?
...
is my calculations on your video showing your output accurate ? I calculated 19LPM plus or minus a bit
....but that is a bunch of hydroxy gas... never seen water being churned up like that before !
HAHAHAHAH
...
 You see from your statement and Randys on running the engine on Hydroxy gas theres a inconsistancy
there that is bugging the heck out of me ... and I want to know whats up with it ! HAHAHA
and its quite possable that we can get your truck to run on that Hydroxy gas alone with no gasoline at all...  I'ed love to see that !
...
Bob........
 

[randy]

plumb your output directly into the intake manifold with throttle closed, tried it just dumping ahead of carb, didn't work??

[scratch1676]

hg2 thanks for the information I will put that in my notebook.  Randy, I do remember you running yours into the intake manifold.  It may come down to that, I don't know.  Bob, I really haven't tried without any fuel on the truck.  I believe, I have the same motor as you.  My truck has the 22r 4cylinder.  I had the hydroxy going what I thought was about 10 to 12 liters a minute and all I did was take the control device I have hooked to the computer and turn it up to shut the fuel off and I had it about halfway and the truck started stumbling like it was running out of gas.  I dont know maybe that device does more than just shutdown the fuel?  I should get thru with this electronic stuff this week, hopefully.  I took and seperated the pwm into two parts, the first part will have the amp meter and the electronic board up by the dash and the part of the pwm that gets hot which is the mosfets and heatsink will be placed behind the seat, because it requires a big fan with air blowing constantly on the heat sink to be able to handle the amps.  If, I tried and place all that up front it would take up too much room.  I wanted to mount the mosfet and heatsink in the back but I havent got any ideals for keeping the unit out of the weather and take care of getting rid of the heat, so for now behind the seat it goes.  Here is a couple of pics from tonight.  One pic I tried to catch the Hydroxy making the water jump out of the bucket it does thrash around alot.  Two, is of the box with the fan and heatsink and mosfets that will mount behind the seat and the other is of the burned up mosfets from earlier today and also it compares two mosfets that both were rated at 110 amps.  It helps when someone show's you the difference in size.

[scratch1676]

[/img]

[scratch1676]

[/img]

forgot the hydrogen jumping in the bucket pic.

[scratch1676]

[Manta]

How are you guys controlling the driveability of these high output devices ?
Seems to me that if you just inject the hydroxy after the carb butterfly valve then you have no control on the revs.
Clearly I have missed something here.

Manta

[Bob]

Your absoultly right Manta !
 just hooking the Hose into the intake will rev the engine to a certain point... and stay there as long as the gas is produced....
 Fortionately he has a large PMW that he can control the output volume of the gas... that will no doubt help him control the engine at some point in time !...
....
 Ok I'm satisified, that 10 to 15LPM will run my truck still....
HOW I will control that amount of gas to make the truck driveable is another can of worms however!
....
interesting Photos Scratch ! thank you !
....
Sense he has the same truck as I do I know more or less what he is fighting now... Randy has a carberated engine that is only slightly bigger than ours Scratch and he ran his carb dry and then Started it and idled it fine on 4LPM of Hydroxy gas with the gasoline turned OFF to the carb.
... so 2.5Liters will idle on 4LPM ... not much more than that as it will fall on its face if you try to accelerate or anything... it only enough to idle the engine...
 10LPM will probly get you to 4000RPM  maybe more... but your going to have to make sure its getting into the intake manifold past the butterfly that is practically closed in order to see it do any running on 100% hydroxy gas .
...
...

... seriously I think you can pull the fuze to the fuel pump ONLY and stop the flow of fuel to the injectors and Keep all the rest of the electronics working on the engine... I have a feeling that when you change the dial on that doo-hicky you are getting the Computer in the truck to also change the timeing by a fairly large margin... so get it running , leave the doo-hicky alone ..  Kill it , pull the fuel pump fuze and put the Hydroxy gas hose in the intake of the intake manifold ( take off the snorkel, and rubber elbow )....then hit the starter and it should fire back up
...
HOWEVER if the starter won't work without the fuel pump fuze in there  you'll have to start it then pull the fuze.... there are more things that INTERACT in that silly truck than people in a Kiss Concert!  hehehehe every device is hooked to at least 3 other things !  its so OVER engineered as to be way past being silly... especially when you consider all you need is spark to make the engine run !
... this is progress ?  hehehe OH well  they do run nicely and for a very very long time !
and I admit I get better gas milage out of the toyota STOCK than I ever did any of the older trucks !
...
..
.
  My plan is to use a small Pressure pot to contain a volume of hydroxy gas this pressure pot will have to be "explosive safe" (even if the gas in it isn't) then simply control the hydroxy gas going to the engine with a ball valve hooked to the throttle peddle...
 More than likely it will be almost un drivable that way because it will fall on its face when the throttle is opened... and I don't know How I will handle that problem yet... it depends on how sivier it is !
  this method should work great if I have enough volume comeing from my Hydroxy generator to KEEP UP WITH THE DEMAND.... if not it won't work ...
 having the 2 large cells you have Scratch Hooked to a 1 gallon Schedual 80 PVC container controled by a pressure switch on/off  should do that very nicely...
that way the cells don't have to operate all the time...
...
using this method I think I can get away with 10LPM if I stay away from steep LONG hills.
..
4LPM makes 2000rpm on Randys truck   8LPM should make 4000rpm ...  (I never reach 4000 when I drive)
...
if the Consumption is 3 times, or exponential, and I think it might be, then....
4LPM makes 2000rpm and 12LPM should make 4000rpm  (3x4=12)... for 3 times the normal rait.
...
4x4=16  which is 4squared (exponential) so then 16LPM is needed for 4000RPM
...
so you can see that in every case Scratch, you have enough LPM to run on 100% right now !
...
hope that inspires you to get your truck runnin on 100% hydroxy gas , because I am sure you can do it !
...
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

How are you guys controlling the driveability of these high output devices ?
Seems to me that if you just inject the hydroxy after the carb butterfly valve then you have no control on the revs.
Clearly I have missed something here.

Manta

You can also do like I did with my camry and hook it to throttle plate vacuum. That is when the throttle is closed(idle)no vacuum and when you step on the accel. pedal the vacuum comes up in certain increments according to where the pedal position is. Most vehicles have throttle plate vacuum somewhere you just have to find it.

[randy]

usually it's the one that controls the vacuum advance on the distributor

[Bob]

Well, I tried useing the Arc welder on DC to power the Old dirty Smackbooster....for the B&S 3.5hp
after I put a barb hose fitting on the short pipe so I could connect the Hydroxy gas between the intake valve and the ball valve that will control the air flow....
I fired the engine on quick start and then hooked the line to the nipple... the O'l smack booster was realy churning away on 45amps and when I gave it a yank it fired right up ...for a second and then died slowly... I did that about 6 times trying to get the feel for what it needed and about then electrolite got spat out of the intake on the engine !... I quickly pulled the hose off and it was squirting water/electrolite in spirts.... !!!
I had checked the bubbler and it was half full is all....
but the smack booster had pushed the electrolite into the bubbler sense it was churning very well
.. so I tried to get the motor to fire on quick start again but to no avail  the plug is wet and I'll have to pull it out and dry out the engine !
....
so.... still not enough Hydroxy gas at this point in time... probably only putting out 1.5 to 2LPM at the most in its condition but I thought I might make up for the condition by pumping a bunch of amps through it.... it didn't seam to work as planned ! <GRIN>
...
However the Carberator seamed to work...such as it is ...with the hose barb and hunk of pipe and a ball valve.... on the intake manifold...  it was running off of the quickstart fairly good.
but then again,... you can do that with no carberator at all ! just squirt it at the intake valve and pull ! HAHAHAHHAHAAH
...
it got down right frosty here last night 22degrees and it felt like it was 10 below!
with a slight brease it would rip away your body heat in just a few seconds.... so I gave up and came back inside to warm up ! heheheh
...
so I need to get a cell working to get that engine to run on 100% hydroxy gas now... I have exhosted all my other options HAHAHHAHAHAHA
I guess its cell cleaning time !
...
Bob......

[scratch1676]

ok this weekend I am going to try those suggestions and see what happens on the toyota.  Its sitting in the shop right now with electronic crap all over it.  I have been driving my one ton chevy to work since I was to wore out to clean off the little truck.  I work 12 hour shifts Wed,Thur,Fri and will crank back up on it Saturday.

[numberonekiwi]

I take it scratch has a carb and not EFI I was wondering with an output like that have a small (ish) tank and feed the output from the bubbler into it say a few litres with a presure os say 30 PSI utalizing a safety valve for flashback with a couple of litres reserve @ 30PSI feed it direct to the EFI injectors ( removing the petrol feed and return lines ) have the return line looping back to the feed side with a  T  so any unused gas is just looped around until used and the reserve tank supplies more when needed alternatly loop in back into the cells at the bottom

[Bob]

Kiwi...
Nope he has a 2004 R22EFI  if I remember the year right.
but definately fuel injected.
... htats what makes it so darn hard to run it on Hydroxy gas... it would be simple if it was a carberated model... but its not , and neither is my toyota....
so at this point most of us are guessing on how to feed a fuel injected truck the hydroxy gas  it needs to run on 100%....
 its one of those... if you do this then, that won't work things, and no one has done it before so we are simply exploreing new ground !
...
Scratch I forgot to mention that in almost every case of engines running on 100% hydroxy gas the air was shut off completely... eather by the carberator butterfly or choke butterfly
or in some cases duct tape.... you might keep that in mind if you stuff the hose in there and it don't run at all... you might try taping off the opening with duct tape, and try it again .

.... if it doesn't even try to fire up...pull a plug and make darn sure your getting spark
...I wouldn't put it past the designers to make it to where the spark is killed if the fuel is stopped.
...
On my truck I know that when the snorkel is removed from the Mass air flow sensor that the fuel pump cannot be turned on... the vacume cracks open the air door and that tripps a relay that turns on the fuelpump.... ( just so you know!)
...
Bob.....

[charley]

Bob, you're a genius!!!  I have a 88 four runner that has been setting and I absolutely can't get the thing to run.  I thought it was out of fuel to start with and took the hose off the intake to shoot some ether in it.  It will run on ether but I can't get it to squirt fuel.  I had no idea they would put a fuel shutoff there.

Thanks thanks thanks!!

Charley

[randy]

hahahahahahahahahahahah! been there once myself, ran a top end kit on one of those durn things and tried to fire it up, that thing wouldn't start until I put that air pipe that runs across the top of the radiator, that's when I realized the MAFS was over by the battery, DUHHH!

[Bob]

yah... i think there should be a law against them doing something like that without them having to tell ya .... after all we got laws for everything else why not that !
HAHAHAHAHA
...
when I had the plastic top off my Mass air flow sensor doo-hicky I noticed the arm that actuated the 2 small relay switches in there.... their very delicate... look fragle even...but when the engine is idleing the air door turns a good 1/4 the way open... which is plunty to turn on the fuel pump !
...
so if you have the snorkel off it ain't going to run !
...
weird arangement !
HAHHHA
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

good information.  Bob, my truck is a 1994 model toyota.  I paid more for my 4 wheeler than I did mor my truck.

[Bob]

Ahhh so it is almost an exact copy of mine then ! thats good to know thanks !
My truck is a 1984 I think... not positive maybe its a 1992  I don't realy remember !
but it has less smog crap on it so it must be older ! HAHAHHAHA
....
fortionately Toyota new they had a good engine with the R-22 and stuck with it for a long time ... I havn't realy done a thing to it sense my brother in law gave it to me ....
I gave him my 700cc honda shadow because I hurd his bike was broke... he got a new car and gave me his old pickup.... and its in fantastic shape ! best truck I've ever has realy.
had 4 Ford pickups includeing a New ford Ranger but this little pickup is better by far ...for my uses !  can't haul as much as I used to... but thats ok as I can't koad that much any more eather ! HAHAHAHAHAH
...
Bob........

[Bob]

I checked my truck is a 1991 toyota R-22EFI
...
anyway here is the hose barb I put on the little B&S the other day as a suction port for the Hydroxy gas....
it seamed to work ok, as it was trying harder to run than before...but still needs more Hydroxy gas.... I'm thinking 3LPM now.... cuz I think I had 2LPM or close to it the other day
...so it may yet take 4LPM to get that tiny engine to run on 100% hydroxy gas !
....
 but I ain't gave up on it yet !
HAHAHAHAH
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

whats the valve on the end for?

[Manta]

Bob,

Here is something to help with the gas supply problem.  Let your cell fill the moving drum 'til it nearly pushes it out of the water tank first.  You will then be able to monitor how much gas the engine is using by watching the way it rises and falls.
If you get the drum to hover at a particular level for X revs that will be usefull data for you.

Manta

[candyman55]

Good idea Manta, but you better add a bubbler into the mix unless you are needing an extra skylight in the shed roof. (LOL)   

[Manta]

Candyman55,


Good point.  Also might be an idea to use a plastic drum instead of a steel one.  Having said that, it probably would go straight up if the gas did light up. 

Wonder how far it would go ?

Manta

[candyman55]

Probably would go a good little way. I wonder if we can talk Bob into giving it a go?

[hydrotinkerer]

This guy is running a 3.5hp briggs lawn mower. I know it is a video but the sheer size of the cell is impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sOwmzcETCY

[scratch1676]

that was a giant cell.

[Bob]

I tried to watch it and lugged down both computers so I turned it off ! heheheheh
did he say what LPM he was using and what size of engine ?
...
how is the carb hooked to the Hydroxy gas ?
...
Bob........

[hg2]

    Bob it was a 3.5 hp briggs motor and he had the tube coming from the bubbler just stuck up in the air cleaner and was using about 10-12 LPM just to make it idle hmmmm I'd say about 400-600 rpm from the sound of it.Darn Bob I guess I was wrong it took almost 12 LPM to idle the briggs and that's over twice my guess of 5 LPM(told you so <snicker snicker>).I not sure how much throttle he had open but I'm guessing it was wide open.One thing for sure you weren't going to apply any load to that motor to run a generator or cut the grass for that matter(although he seemed to have enough tubing to run around the lawn a few times HAHAHAHA).Man one wrong spark with that setup and you could see that one from space.

  Bob the guy said the cell he used to generate the 10-12 LPM weighed almost 250 lbs.and was massive.I think after seeing that youtube it's time to break out the dreaded ol' drawing board again.

  The guy was also talking about using solar panels and batteries for household use.but by the time you paid for all the solar panels batteries and build another dozen of those overgrown cells your cost return plan would be about 20 years give or take a decade.

  Hey the guy has the right idea but like most regarding this idea he's a long long long long long way from achieviing it.

   Ok guys before you switch on the military mode on your keyboards remember this only my opinion there are many like it but this one is mine heheheheheh.

[hydrotinkerer]

I got a good laugh out of the length of hose he used from the cell to the mower. It just kept going, going, and going.

[Bob]

Holey COW ! ( and yes thats a cow full of holes!,...Not a cow destined for sainthood!)
...
10 to 12LPM and it was only idleing ?  that is so far out in the OZONE its not even funny!
I bet he had Hydroxy gas boiling out of that air cleaner all the time its a wonder it didn't explode on him !
...
I'ed say first off thats part of the problem, the way he hooked it to the engine.
it ran the engine and thats probly as far as he took it... when he probly could have ran it on much much less....
 Remember what I said about Hydroxy gas exploding  all the way up to 100%.... and that it will NOT FLOOD....  that is a very good example of it... unlike gasoline... if you have too much hydroxy gas you won't Know it except by the consumption... where with gasoline it will flood out and not run at all ! but Hydroxy gas just keeps on firing!
...
... however I would have thought that that would mean higher RPMs  but maybe the Air mix is responsible for that ...I dunno...I have a gutt feeling that is with no outside air at all
and I'm fairly sure that is a major flaw because the engine can only get a small amount of Hydroxy gas into the cylinder if thats the case... there has to be some air going into the engine from outside... I have thought long and hard about this aspect of it and I am sure I am right on this because without the opening you'll only get enough hydroxy gas to barely run the thing.... hinse the idle only.
...
 But, it sounds as if it was just enough to run it at idle,( and I know better than that..YES I"M A HARD HEAD!) but the 3.5 B&S is a very lousie engine when it comes to working efficiently.
  when Randy's truck Idled on 4LPM with no gasoline in the carb at all that tells me it won't take all that much Hydroxy gas to run my truck... and Randy is NOT the only one that has ran their vehicles on Hydroxy gas  granted almost all that I know of were Older Carberated engines. but that doesn't change the fact that they ran on hydroxy gas  at UNDER 10LPM.... Randys 2.5Liter Dodge had 4LPM and ran, Hydrotech's Hudge V8 Chevy duely took 8LPM and he drove it to the end of the block and back, it ran like shit he said! but it RAN !...
LTCFisher Ran his little car on hydroxy gas Only I think....and  I think Scratch1676 Has also ran his truck on Hydroxy gas alone
...
 So I just don't think one documented case of a 3.5 takeing 10 to 12LPM to run it will sway me ! HAHAHAHAHA !  especially when Hydroxy doesn't Flood and it just keeps on exploding
if you look at it from my point of view the engine was running on 100% hydroxy gas with No air at all  ... and it was so rich that it wasn't even funny... like 100% rich!
if you break it down to go as lean as 50/50 even that reduces it to 5 to 6LPM which is still allot in my book but exceptable !
...
 SO.... Nope I'm not convinced it will take that much yet ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[randy]

I'm not sure about the amount of hydroxy the cell I ran my truck on was putting out, at the time I was using baking soda and a very high output charger, If I remember right the cell was pulling around 70 amps, the gas was introduced directly into the intake manifold, I think the key to running 100% hydroxy is controlling the amount of air introduced with the gas, I moved the input hose ahead of the carb and it would not run.

[Bob]

Hay Randy ...Did you try to open the throttle with the hose infront of the carb ?
I amagon you tried about everything eh ?
...
Bob....

[candyman55]

Bob,
I got this link form another Forum, it has a lot of interesting info. Along with a lot of formulas that I didn't try to figure out but somewhere in the text this guy stated that he could not get the engine to run when adding hydrogen in front of the carb. Someone else may want to check it out if they havent already.

http://hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1957

[Bob]

Kool ! thanks Candyman !
...
Bob......

[scratch1676]

I am just repeating a statement from the study..  It has been shown that a significant reduction in brake specific fuel consumption ( H2 + Gasoline), in the order of 20%,is achieved with hydrogen-enriched gasoline for a hydrogen to fuel mass ration of 6% and equivalence ratio of 0.65.  Bottom line is scientist took a 4cyl Jeep and ran it on a lean mixture of 6 percent hydrogen and got 20 to 23 percent less gasoline consumption.  That helps raises my esteem.

[Bob]

hehehe well, that wasn't a very good study because most of us have seen a 50% reduction in gasoline consumption at one point or another..... however keeping it that way seams to be a bigger hassle than I ever anticipated !
...hhehehehe
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

well 6 percent is not a problem to generate and to get 20 percent.  They mentioned hydrogen not hydroxy.  So can we say that since water is made up of 3 electrons that if we supply 18 percent Hydroxy that it will be getting the same hydrogen as pure 6 percent or how would that caculate out.  I understand you are also adding more oxygen but you could restrict air flow as you have and change the ratio's right?

[numberonekiwi]

well 6 percent is not a problem to generate and to get 20 percent.  They mentioned hydrogen not hydroxy.  So can we say that since water is made up of 3 electrons that if we supply 18 percent Hydroxy that it will be getting the same hydrogen as pure 6 percent or how would that caculate out.  I understand you are also adding more oxygen but you could restrict air flow as you have and change the ratio's right?

Not to sure on 18 % if hydroxy gas is 2 parts hydrogen an 1 oxygen then to get 6% or 6 parts hydrogen you in theory would only need 9 of hydroxy

I tried clicking on the relavent link but I get a message server not responding

[scratch1676]

well thats even better.  I just need some signs of encouragement here and there. 

[Manta]

There is one point that doesn't seem to get mentioned much.  That is the swept volume of the engine. Bob,  for one,  mentioned that you don't need the same volume of hydroxy as you did air.  But the engine (say a 2 litre 4 cylinder) will have to pull in 500 cc of something on the inlet stroke.  If you try to restrict this to,  say,  250 cc of hydroxy by blanking off the air inlet then the engine has to take the full 500cc as hydroxy or it will try to pull a vacuum.  This will defeat the who point.

The way I see it is that to get near to the ideal we will have to change the valve timing geometry.  We are heading towards a different kind of engine.

Do you guys agree on this one ?

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
 I see your point, however the internal combustion engine ( what ever its form) already runs in a state of vacuum 100% of the time.... or it could Not run !
 it takes vacuum to suck in the fuel air mix... so the cylinders are constantly under a state of vacuum
weather its a HIGH state of vacuum or a low state of vacuum ....vacuum is still present
the only time when the engine is not in vacuum is about 1/2 the way up on the compression stroke
then it turns to positive pressure fast.... and also on the exhost stroke were the piston pushes out the burned gases ... but on the intake side its strictly a vacuum state.
...
if you close off the intake completely all you do is increase the already present vacuum but you leave no place for the gas to go....  even though the piston is pulling hard on the gas inside , if there is nothing to come in to replace the gas from the other side the gas in the intake will not move into the cylinder.... However we have not closed off the Hydroxy gas line so the engine will take all it can get from the generator in a big gulp. pulling ALL the hydroxy gas from the line and from the cell... and unless you have a very large volume of output of Hydroxy gas in LPM the engine will be running short on fuel to burn...
in fact, what will happen is your intake system will very quickly reach its maximum vacuum and then ONLY the gas being generated between the intake strokes will get to move into the cylinder...
needless to say that is a very tiny amount of gas !...
...
you see only if the hydroxy gas is then moving in the intake manifold... it can it flow into the cylinder and indeed run...
... the engine itself has a very high amount of vacuum on the intake side NOW and it is threatening to collapse the cell but sense air and most gases cannot exceed -20 p.s.i most containers will handle that with no problem.
now sense everything is under a vacuum from the engine the hydroxy generator and line and intake manifold all reach the same vacuum as the engines cylinder.... so NOTHING WILL MOVE
... the only amount that will MOVE is the amount of hydroxy gas being generated between the strokes
because that raises the vacuum in the container a bit, allowing that small amount of volume to move slightly...and after about 6 to 10 revolutions that small amount of volume finally reaches the cylinder where it can be ignited....  ( so its obviously not going to run like that!)
...
so to remedy this we need to open at least some air to the outside and allow the incoming air to go to the cylinder and carry the hydroxy gas with it.
even a small amount of air should do the trick as long as its enough to allow the hydroxy gas to reach the cylinder...but there has to be some or you will wind up with a "vaporlock" on the intake side!
where nothing is moving at all...
...
so Restricting the flow of air to the engine may not hurt much at all, but cutting it off certainly isn't going to work very well unless you have a huge hydroxy generator that can push enough gas into the cylinder on its own !

 However I feel restricting the air is more or less detrimental to the running of the engine
you will have to keep the hydroxy gas as pure as possible but still allow it to travel into the cylinders... and without air flow that isn't going to happen unless you force feed it.
...
the internal combustion engine is essentially a "MASS AIR PUMP"  thats what it does, is move huge volumes of air... from the intake to the exhost... restricting one side of it is just going to cut down on the amount of air it can move ... and the more air the engine moves the more powerful it is
so if you restrict the air you restrict the power....
 ...
there is going to have to be a very fine balance on air to hydroxy gas in order to run an engine...
but that is also said for gasoline as well... which is even more picky !
so it can be done but it will take some experimenting to do it !
...
my 2 coppers
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Bob,

We're not talking about the same thing here.  I see what you mean,  but I'm on about something a bit different.

You said,

...if you close off the intake completely all you do is increase the already present vacuum but you leave no place for the gas to go...

And,

...However we have not closed off the Hydroxy gas line so the engine will take all it can get from the generator in a big gulp. pulling ALL the hydroxy gas from the line and from the cell... and unless you have a very large volume of output of Hydroxy gas in LPM the engine will be running short on fuel to burn....

But when an engine is running,  it isn't pulling against a dead head.  It is pulling air in from a limitless open space. If you try to pull an engine over when one of the pistons has just passed tdc on the firing stroke (both valves closed) then you know that it won't pull down easily;  it 'bounces' back against you. This is due,  as you know,  to the vacuum above the piston.  Normally the fuel would be burning at this point so there would be great pressure instead.
So,  we are back to engines not needing as much hydroxy mix as they would need fuel/air.  But as they stand they still need to get that cylinder full .  But if the valve timing was changed then the piston could suck in it's reduced load of hydroxy then the inlet valve could close and the mix be fired.
I don't see how you could run with a vacuum in the cell.  Surely once a vacuum is formed then all your hydroxy has gone. And you will need to generate more at an enormous rate.
1000 rpm with a 4 cylinder 2 litre engine will need 1 litre * 1000 per minute.  I think.  That's 16.66 litre per second.

Someone else please do the sums to confirm this.

'course,  I could be wrong. 

Manta

[Bob]

hehehe your not wrong Manta ! but your missing something that is vital...
you do NOT have to fill the cylinders every time  they open the intake valve... inface its almost impossable to without a positive pressure pushing the air fuel mixture into the cylinder...
... now think about that for a second.... you don't and actually cannot fill the cylinders completely full  each time.... then how can it run ?  its easy  it doesn't have to have a full cylinder in order to run ( which is a good thing sense it can't happen!) ... In fact in a normal running engine just idleing
the engine is getting just a very small spit of gas and about as much air as it can gulp...about 1/2 a cylinder full...  but yet the engine runs.. the explosion is a SMALL one, not a full cylinder full
but maybe 1/2 a teacup full of burnable gas ...but that explosion, being confined by the cylinder walls pushes the piston hard enough to keep the engine turning over...
...
so think about this for a second....  the engine is running on diferent sized explosions... not ALL big ones... this should be obvious or it would run at top RPM all the time...OK ?
sense it has smaller explosions how is that done? just a smaller amount of FUEL and AIR !
... if you were to let all the air possable into the cylinder it would be too lean a mixture to fire
so the air IS RESTRICTED at idle by the butterfly in the carberator... so the engine is running in a constant state of vacuum... what little air that is allowed in through the carberator butterfly  alows enough fuel mix at the "RIGHT porportions" into the cylinder which is compressed and then exploded.
but its a SMALL amount.... not the cylinder full !  and unless you understand that you will be barking up the wrong tree! <GRIN>
...
so if we take the same engine and use Hydroxy gas instead of gasoline/air... the same rules apply
nothing has changed except the fuel to make the explosion... a SMALL explosion... not a big one
so when the valve opens now and it wants to draw in a cylinder full and it can't because the carb butterfly is shut off almost completely, and only a small teacup of Hydroxy gas gets into the cylinder
it is a small Explosion... not a complete cylinder full...
...
SO.. a 2Liter engine turning at 1000RPM needs HOW much Hydroxy gas to run ? its imposable to say
because of the small explosions and partial vacume on each cylinder that is present at all times
... thats WHY I say you can't say RPMxENGINE DISPLACEMENT =Hydroxy gas needed...even at FULL THROTTLE
this formula would be wrong, because it does not account for the loss of engine volume due to the partial vacuum!  and its really imposable to even guess at how much each cylinder gets at an Idle as far as fuel goes isn't it ? gasoline or hydroxy gas... because it depends on the size of the explosions!
this is the main reason I say it will not take a super huge amount of hydroxy gas to run most cars...
because they do not normally run on big huge explosions, they run on rather small delicate explosions
...although you still Need the big explosions from time to time, going up steep hills or starting out from a stop sign.... the bigger the explosion in the cylinder the more power... but 90% of the time you are not using big huge explosions... your only using a very small amount of fuel to keep the engine turning over.
... when rolling down the road at 55MPH my Cilica only takes about 15~20hp to sustain that speed...
my truck would take slightly more , probably about 23~25hp.... because of the wind resistance.
starting off  of coarse will take a great deal more hp ...but once its rolling just small explosions do the job...
...
..
I know this probably goes against how you figured out how the engine runs... but it is very logical and I know for a fact that it works this way.
so the vacuum is ever present, even at top RPM when the throttle is wide open and its making the biggest explosions it possibly can... there is still a vacuum sucking the fuel/air mix into the engine
other wise the engine would not run...
when the throttle is opened to the wide open position the vacuum does indeed DROP but there is still enough vacuum to allow operation...
 if the carberator is slightly too big and you open the throttle suddenly the engine is said to have a "FLAT SPOT" where for a second or two the vacuum is so low as to stop the explosions completely ,the only thing that gets into the cylinders is stright air and only a tiny bit of gasoline... too lean to fire... so you get the Wahhhhhhh ZOOOOM effect as it finally recovers and sucks enough gas to fire again....... the "Flat spot" is due to too Low of a Vacuum ... it doesn't pull the gas out of the carberator  and so its too lean to fire in the cylinders for a few seconds until the vacuum raises up enough to start sucking enough gasoline to run once again.
...
the same senerio can be said for Hydroxy powered engines even though they will fire at a much leaner ratio,  the "FLAT SPOT" will more than likely be a serious pain in the Ass to over come !
but we can over come it just like the carberators do... its called a Accelerator Pump when the throttle is opened suddenly a pump pushes extra gasoline into the air stream... and sense more fuel is present there is no more "Flat spot"
we can do the same with Hydroxy gas if it becomes necessary...its just harder to do with Gas than it is with a Liquid ! <GRIN>
....
...
Also... just for your information... I put a ball valve on my intake of the 5HP B&S engine with the intake completely sealed off ...no air can get in at ALL... that does not lock up the engine at all.
simply because air is so elastic it stretches very easily into a vacuum...
so when I pulled on the starter rope I realy didn't notice any more difficulty in pulling the engine through at all... Your car is no different if you blocked off the intake completely the engine would still turn over fine, perhaps a tiny bit slower but that is all...
but with the outside air shut off completely  the only other place for that -20lbs of vacuum to go would be the Hydroxy line...
...
think of it like this... with a vacume in the cylinder it pulls the piston up...ok ?
a partial vacume will just try to pull the piston up  a bit less but it will still help move the piston
its like having a spring in the cylinder helping you once you get past BDC
...
Bob........

[scratch1676]

hmmm, I am still on my pain killers, so I think I will stay out of this and just read  he he he

[Bob]

HAHAHA I understand that ! those pain killers mess wid me head man !
hope that root canal or "causeway" that the dentist made will get better soon ! nothing like a pain in the head to realy put a person out'a commission ...
its not like your finger hurting or a leg or anything like that... its so close to the brain that its super dificult to even begin to control the pain ! ... I can handle pain to a certain extent on say arms and legs but when it comes to my head I have a hard time with it ! HAHAHAH
 ....
  I think the worse pain I ever had was an ear infection when I was about 25yrs old... and I understand why the people in the middle ages would pay someone else to kill them in such a siduation !
it went on for 3 days... even with the doctor doing everything he could... but it finally let up...
 my Dad has a saying "it'll feel so good when it just stops hurting!" HEHEHEHE and boy thats the truth!
... although hitting my hand with a full swing with a big hammer , driveing in a 12" spike took the cake about 7 years ago.... why it didn't brake anything I'll never know but oooh baby dat did smart!
,...but its completely diferent for me on the hand than in the head.... maybe thats cuz theres nuttin in me head to begin with , and the pain sort'a echo's around in there or something...I dunno ! HAHAHAHAHA
....
hang in there it'll heal up soon ! and you'll be eating nuts again ! HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.........

 

[Manta]

Bob,

Thanks for the walk-through on internal combustion engine operation.  I guess this is the point where I should mention that I have spent 30 of the last 49 working years as a car/light aircraft mechanic.

So I know what you are saying.

But we are still talking at cross purposes. The point I was (am) trying to make is that I don't see how you an expect an engine to run on just hydroxy when you have it tied straight to the cell.
I agree that it may not  take a cylinder full of hydroxy to run the engine. To avoid it taking all your gas and wasting what it doesn't need you will have to allow air in.
Or you have to have a massive gas generating capability.

'Course,  we will find out when someone gets an engine to run at more than tick-over on gas alone.

A Briggs and Stratton maybe ?   

Manta

[candyman55]

I wish you guys would get something to run on hydroxy. That way I could see if my theroies are correct without having to test em myself.   

[Bob]

Manta !
I agree completely with you NOW on the letting some air into the mix... its a must I think.
I didn't think that way a while back though, but I have changed my views on it because of my experiments and thinking it all the way through...
 Yah I think an engine would run with no air at all let in... with the intake plates off so to speak... but as you said it would be FAR from effecient !<GRIN>
...
I used to think that Hydroxy gas couldn't be deluted with air at all.... but I know better now... it can be... but not as much as gasoline because the Hydrogen is already somewhat deluted with the oxygen.... so you may not be able to get a 14:1 ratio out of hydroxy gas in mixing air with it, but then again you might be able to get 50:1... I simply don't know.
...
My experiments on the B&S have come to a screeching halt for the next few months ( till aprox. April or May! ) because of the cold weather... not having a shop to work in is my biggest bane! .. I expect snow here in the next day or so ... so most of my tinkering is over for a while...darn it !... snow usually stays all winter till about the middle of May !... if I'm realy lucky a few weeks sooner , but I'm not going to hold my breath and wait!
HAHAHAHAH
....
...
So don't be looking to me to get the B&S going on hydroxy gas alone any time soon... SORRY!
....
Bob.

[hg2]

  Hey Bob I'll swap you some hot air for some cold.It'll save me from having to turn on the airconditioning next week seeing as the average high here in Florida next week is 80.     

[Manta]

Candyman55,
No doute it will happen,  but it may take a while.  I would really like to be the one to do it but until next March lack of funds prevent me from getting an old single cylinder petrol engine to experiment on. My other option would be to use the engine in my Manta 1.8,  but it is outside.  And like Bob,  the winter is setting in here and we have had snow and ice with temperatures at -4C for the last couple of week.  Too cold for my old bones to be subjected to for more than a few minutes at a time.  I could put a small engine in the shed.

So for the time being I am limited to experimenting with little cells.  But on the bright side I just bought a multi-channel data logger so that I can record all the changing parameters at the same time. It's quite interesting.  I'll post results as they come in.

Bob,
I know how you feel about the cold.  For years I worked outside in all weathers fixing vehicles. Not much fun.
You need to get a big shed built;  top priority. One man;  one shed.   

We'll find out more as we go along. Wonder who will be the first to report valve failure due to hydrogen enbrittlement 

Manta

[Bob]

Show OFF !
its only 24 degrees here for the high today.... Just send any extra hot air over this way it'll be put to good use.... Lord knows you got plunty at your place ! <GRIN>
... HEHEHEHE
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Yep,  that extra 0.8 degree F makes me want to run naked through the fields of clover.  Well,  maybe not quite naked.

Manta

[Bob]

Well I gots about 2" of very light and fluffy snow on the ground this morning...
so Light and fluffy you can sweep it away with the broom...so that is a good point !
its not so bad when its like that !
looks like we'll have a white christmass here again this year !
...temp was in the teens somewhere last night, probly in the low 20's now  makes me want to move in with Tink in the bananna belt ! HAHAHAHAHAH
I mean after all Arazona is the perfect place for Gyrocopters because there are very few trees to fly into ! mostly just sage brush and sidewinders to worry about ! HAHAHA!
...
but unfortionately Tink is not in the low lands he's high in the mountians too I think
so he's probly getting snow too ! HAHAHAH
.... HAY TINK ...how do you keep the snow off those solar panels anyway ?
<GRIN>
...
Bob.........

[Tink]

Well,
I'm back. Did get some snow but not much. I learned that the area I live in is called 'Hole in The Clouds' by the native Americans. This hole only affects a few square miles. This must be why my batteries always go to float faster than other peoples batteries. Anyway we missed the big snow that happens on the Mogieion Rim south of here. And in Sunrise the big skey lodge gets the really big snows at 10,000 feet. We're having a very mild winter so far. Temps in the afternoon are in the high 40's to 50's. We'll get a few sub 0 nites even as low as 15 below. I usually don't go through more than 2 cords of wood a year. Bob, I use a swimming pool brush with a 20 foot collapisable handle to brush off the snow from the panels. You know when I was growing up in Pennsylvania a white christmas was when it acctually snowed on the day. We always had snow on the ground but it had to snow on Christmas to be a real white Christmas. Yea, and the trees here where I live are short but 20 miles south they are 1 hundred feet high. The best land is on the Apache reservation. No sidewinders here but we do see mountian lions and elk and mule deer and analope and javalina everywhere. An occasional Mexican wolf and coyotes come right up to you and want to eat your chickens.
Tink

[Bob]

we Live about 50 miles from the Peek of Mt. Lassen ....as the crow flies...
and have 100ft pine trees all around us we live in the shade ALL the time !
thats why I havn't gone with any solar stuff here, but at the ranch that will be diferent!
because there is lots of sun there !
...
we have Mt.Lion ( I kicked a young one in the head a few years back for trying to eat a baby racoon !..) Black bear, bunch of deer in the warmer months, squirels, and bunnies,skunks
and even wolverines, and the occasional, Coyote and fox ....
We nave never had any bear problems here because we alwayse have dogs... but One time something was prawling around that I dunno what the heck it was and the dogs would not come with me.... so I desided they were smarter than me and went back and hid out with them ! HAHAHHAHAHAH
 I figure it was eather a big-bear of bigfoot ! one or the other !  HAHAHAHAH
...
one thing for certain if the Volcano here ever rumbles I'm outa here fast ! 50Miles isn't far enough away thats for darn sure ! HAHAHAHA
....
we have a good 12" of snow out there now.... I went to town yesterday and got studded mud and snow tires on the wifes car so we're in good shape now !
sure took a big bite out of the bank though $220 for 2 frigging tires ! and .... and get this ...AND I had to take the tires off and hand them the tires before they would mount them on the rims.... can't put just 2 studded tires on have to put on 4....  GRRRRR!
...
oh well, "Such is the way it goes , first your money then your clothes !"
HAHAHAH
Bob.......

[Tink]

I lived in the Seattle area for 3 years and left just 3 months before Mt. St. Hellens blew. If the wind was blowing the other way my home would have been buried in ash. It's raining here at 36 degrees and supposed to turn to snow. Going to get into the teens tonight. I can't believe you kicked a mountain lion in the head. You must be an offly scarry dude to spook a mountain lion! Out here they have been known to relocate bears who get too close to civilation. They catch them in big green trailers that they bait and haul them off deep into the forrest. I know because when I lived on the res. they parked one right behind my house. Took them a week to get it. The darn thing was ravaging everybodies trash cans.

Tink

[Bob]

well Tink its like this... there I was working outside under the Awning at 3:30am (nothing new for me as I am up at all hours of the night!) anyway all of a sudden I hear this comotion start on the other side of the house, I hurd the buckeling of tin just before the screaming and growling started...  so I grabed my flashlight and walked swiftly around the back of the house in the direction of the noise and getting mad as I went because something was trying to kill eather one of my cats or something and wasn't doing a very good job of it as it was screaming to beat the band!... by the time I rounded the cornor I was hot... and yelling for what ever it was to  "Knock it off!"  but it simply ignored my loud yells !
 I searched with my flashlight in the direction of the sound and I see one big blue eye but that is all... so I crawled through the fence and ran towards it and threw up my hands and yelled and realised when I did that that what ever it was had a racoon , one of the young ones I had been feeding for the last 6 weeks... on cat food ! <grin> well that didn't make me happy at all ! so there I am standing 3 feet from what ever it is and I finally made out it was a mountian lion that had the racoon by the ear and head , and the little racoon was screaming so loud it was deffining !  well I could see that the mountian lion was adimant about keeping his dinner, but I was pissed and figured if he couldn't do a better job than that he didn't need to eat my buddy ! so I hollered at him again  and I got both eyes focused on me then and I hauled off and kicked the mt.lion in the fore-head realy hard... thinking that will make him let go... but nope he was a tanatious and hungry critter evedently, and held on like grim death....
by then I'm so mad I'm ready to bite the silly lion so I hauled off and kicked him as hard as I could kick with my steel cap boots and he definately let go then it hurt my foot so bad I was limping the next day !  but I didn't dare limp then because when the lion let go of his prize there was a shower of pine needles and a flash to under my house, and I asumed it was the racoon... because he was no where to be found... the Mt Lion stagered back and almost fell over and shook his head and then focused on me with a glare and about then is when I thought "OOOOOH SHIT !"  which I might add was a bit late in the game !
the only thing I could do then was continue the advance, if I had turned to run he would have had me for lunch !  I kicked at him but missed and he desided to put a bit of distance between that crazy human and himself and loped off down the hill... I made a hasty retreet back tothehouse and got the shotgun and ( limping slightly) I went back out there to find his butt.... sure enough he was not far from where he had the racoon pinned , and I hollered at him and ran towards him and he desided that that crazy human was going to kick him again and split .... I cought up with him at the back cornor of the property and had the 12 guage almost squeezed off when he  disipeered over a log .... when I reached the log he was no where to be seen....
I hunted him for about 15 min more but only saw his eyes 2 times, the last time he was a long way awayand makeing good speed away.... and that was all I wanted.... I got my point accross to him and Ihavn't been bothered by him sense ( that I Know of!<GRIN>)
he eather left or is a better hunter now ! HAHAHHAHA
....
 that was probly one of the most stupid things I've ever done... he was a young Mt Lion, probly only a yearling, but he could have realy done me some bad dammage if he got mad at me !...as it was I bluffed him off.... fortionately !
when he focused on me after I kicked him that look was one I'll never forget ! it was "why you no good...." and my hand went into my pocket and grabbed my pocket knife , if he would have charged we would have fought... he knew it and so did I ... luckily he was young and I out weighed him 2 to 1  HAHAHAHAHA
... I made myself a promice not do do that ever again !  its one of those ..."get the gun first STUPID !!!!!"  things !
...
Bob........

 

[Tink]

Bob,
If that lion was a mommy and had cubs nearby you'd been pushin up daisies by now. We get a lot of bald eagles here. But, the most bald eagles I ever saw was in Florida. Acctually the biggest nusance here is the Meth-Heads. They steal everything. There are many older people who have this conception of retirement of getting a travel trailer and planting it on an acre or more of land and cookin meth to stay high till they die. This whole darn planet is sick. But, getting back to the elctrical generator, are you finding that it is impossible to run one on HHO if it hase dynamos instead of a distributor?
Tink

[Bob]

hehehe it don't matter where ya are the thieves are alwayse out there Tink...<GRIN>
they leave me alone because I think they saw me come out of the house with the shot gun one time when a truck pulled up outside with no lights on......the truck left in a hurry
 I will shoot the SOB's ! its my stuff and I ain't gunn'a let some thief take it away!
...
anyway...
 well as far as the timeing goes it was causing a problem on the 5hp engine as it has no points at all, strictly a magneto operated igniion... but the 3.5hp is working better but not perfect...
 in all honnesty I don't really know yet , as I realy havn't got enough Hydroxy gas to run eather engine... and it will have to wait till spring thaw now...
...
I THINK the ignition is a "Show stopper"  because the way the 5hp was acting was every other compression stroke  Popped the pop off cap...  even if it did fire one or 2 times in a row at least one of them was a back fire...  I'm sure that is because the timeing is so far advanced... its probly close to 15 to 20 degrees BTDC on that engine... where on the 3.5hp that has points its closer to say 5degrees BTDC.
....
I think you can mount the pick up coil on a plate under the flywheel though and just have slots in the bolt patern to allow the timeing change... I thought of that the other day and I am almost positive that will work great... it will have to be 1/4" plate though I bet to  make it stable enough to hold the magneto pickup/coil fermly enough to operate.
but there are bolt holes and threds under the flywheel that a person could attach the plate to...and I don't think you'll have to bend the plate in any way... though you may have to shave off some of the engine case to alow this...
I dunno... but it LOOKS possable
... but at least 5LPM is hard to come by..and sense that is what other guys have had to have I will shoot for that number... but I WILL try and see how lean I can make it run
... as I have said many times Hydroxy gas will go very very lean and still explode
as well as super rich... so if you don't try to lean it out  you could waste Hydroxy gas like there is no tomorrow ! ...
... right now I have a ball valve on a 1/2" piece of pipe welded to a manifold plate and a brass nipple on the pipe between the ball valve and the intake.... thats it... thats my carberator for Hydroxy gas, about as simple as it gets...
I will put a valve on the gas line to control the flow to the engine,
and then very the air intake with the ball valve...  thats the plan anyway!
...
and Yah your absoulty right... about that Mt. Lion... I was very, very, VERY lucky !
it being a Young and inexperienced  critter is all that saved my butt !
I think if it would have been a full sized one I'ed have ran when I saw it ! HAHAHA but I dunno I was pissed... and that in itself scares me ! of all the stupud things to do !
heheheh oh well live and learn I guess ! HAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Keep me posted on the genny progress. Maby HHO would work better on a desiel genny. We just aquired a small one that is why I brought that up. It's raining here and I gotta go to work. 36 degrees at 5am. No snow today here at 'Hole in the Clouds' AZ.
Tink

[Bob]

Well, here is a update on my progress on running the B&S on pure hydroxy gas...
 No progress at All !
... heres a Pic of the reason <GRIN> that Pile of Snow is my test table and You can barely see the blue B&S 3.5hp waiting paitiantly for me to get to it !
the hydroxy generator is completely burried in the snow and so is my want to play with anything at the moment ! its just too cold out there ! HAHAHHAH
... I'm guessing but I think we have a good 24" of snow now....

Bob......

[scratch1676]

man, I would love to get my four wheeler and play around in that.

[Tink]

Bob,
That will put a damper on any project! We got a mear 6 inches and they can't even keep the roads here from being snow packed. I ran off the road the other day going to work after passing a slower truck. He must have been laughing at me as he drove by.

Scratch,
Without 4x4 I wouldn't make it home most days in the winter here and a few days in the summer too with all the mud we get during monsoon that starts every year after the 4th of July and lasts for a month or 2.
Tink

[scratch1676]

Tink,  I live in Texas and its rare we get snow.  The problem here is  no one know's how to drive on snow and ice and they are all accidents waiting to happen.  We do have your 4 wheel drive jacked up mud run trucks and they look for any reason to slap that baby in 4 wheel or to use that winch.  I have four wheelers that my wife and kids take out to mud runs and mountains to ride for fun.  I never got to run it in the snow but seeing Bob's picture made me want to.  Here is a few pics of me on the toys.
                   No I aint stuck                               Wife and Navy Buddy Quachita Mountains                             Me and My Prowler


         Brother in law and me ( in the blue )                         Navy Buddy and Wife in the Mountains
           

[Tink]

Scratch,
That looks like fun. I must say there is nothing like sliding sideways through a mud pit and hallin butt through the snow in 4x4. My Toyota just about goes anywhere. I do wish I hadn't sold my '85 Dodge 4x4 1 ton crew cab though, no electronics to fool with but that was before I got into this HHO stuff.
Tink

[Bob]

HAHAHA that looks like loads of fun !
I used to go with my Kid and neighbor's Kid and go Dirt bike rideing in Fernley nevada
I got my Kid a KDX125cc the Neighbor Kid had a YZ125 and I had a TT500 yamaha...
Let me tell you it was rough keeping up with those Kids ! ..I finally got a KX200 Kawasaki
which made it easier and less tireing than the big 500cc but it was still a challenge to pass those Kids !..
brings back fond memories of good times !
....I just gott'a get me another dirt bike ! HAHAHAHHA
...
Bob......

[hydrotinkerer]

Scratch, Where in Texas do you live?

[scratch1676]

Hooks, Texas its 10 minutes from Texarkana, Texas and 3 Hours on I30 East from Dallas.

[hydrotinkerer]

I was just wondering how close to me you are. I am in Corsicana, TX it is about a hour south of Dallas on I45.

[scratch1676]

I have been thru there alot of times on my way to Waco.  My daughter just graduated college in Ft. Worth and lives in an apartment of there now.

[Manta]

Bob,

Have you seen that scambusters video of the little engine running on 100% hydroxy ?
Also the hho explosion clip ?

both interesting.

Manta

[Bob]

Nope dial up takes forever to watch videos Manta.... so I don't bother
I did see where they said they had a video of a engine running on 100% hydroxy gas though
that was good to see !
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Hay Manta ! sense you watched the video, did you notice if they cut off ALL the air going to the engine or a portion of it or what? that seams to be the only real question about running a briggs on HHO....
the last pic I saw of one running on 100% the carberator throat was sealed off with a piece of duct tape ! HAHAHAHAH
....
Bob.....

[Manta]

Yes,

looked like a piece of tape over the carb inlet.  Also they didn't try to run above a tick-over.  But it did show that the engine would run.  But we already knew that.
Manta

[Bob]

Ahhh...as I suspected ! nice to know!
infortionately that almost proves to me it will take more HHO to run my truck than I first thought ! ...oh well ! still.... I can do it !
thanks Manta!
...
Bob....

[H²+O]

BOB...

 Will a b&s engine run backwards? reason i ask is that since We want the spark to fire as late as possable turn the rotation the other way and you have it! (I think...) But that's the reason for posting,, learn what you didn't know for sure before  .

I have a 3.5 hp
and a 8 hp    Both of them with the doohickey that fires the sparkplug, with that stationary.

thanks,
Steve

[Bob]

Steve:
 No they are 4 cycle engines not 2 cycle and will not run backwards... not without major changes, anyway!
... I don't THINK you could swap exhost and carberator goodies and turn the engine backwards or not as the cam lobes would not be opening the valves at the right time... worst yet would be that the left handed threds holding the flywheel nut on would no doubt loosen and alow the flywheel to come loose and sheer the keyway.... you'ed never keep it tight !
....
yes the ignition being FIXED in place is a major draw back on those engines, the only way I could see of changeing it was to make a plate and mount the ignition coil/pickup on the plate and then mount the plate where the coil normially mounts... in effect off setting the coil to change the timeing.
...
Bob........

[H²+O]

Figured it wouldn't work cause You didn't do it! but Worth a try!

Ok so have you figured out a good way to make a plate so that you can slide the magnito left and right (what way should it go???). LOL once i learn it I seldom forget and it doesn't hurt to learn!!!

I was thinking something like measuring all the way around the deal with the magnit then measuring the distance from the magnit up to the screw holes taking off 1/32 of an inch (or less). then getting a disk to go around and cutting a curving line hole 2 or 3 inches in either derection so i can tighten the magnito to the left or right while having the metal secured at the right distance already.
 well I'll give it a go when I get a good piece of scrap metal
steve

[Bob]

Which way should it go ? well the B&S I have the crank shaft turns clockwize and sense it is fireing too soon to run on Hydroxy gas you need to move the pickup to the right along the Magnet's arc about 1/2" or so is all you need....
 when in doubt  put a straw in the spark plug hole and touch the top of the piston when it stops rising is when the spark should fire. or top dead center (TDC)
as much as 2 to 4degrees AFTER TDC should work as well... infact some guys with older trucks say they had to retard the spark that much ....FWIW.
...
it depends on the size of the flywheel and its radious as to how far you should move it....
As you say an adjustable  plate is the best way to go , that way you can fine tune it for best results!
...
good luck  and keep us informed on your progress please !
...
Bob.......