Where to Inject the gas ?

[Bob]

Well I have seen many a hookup of diferent systems and so far I don't think
any one was exceptional.... except one... LTC Fishers unit....
on a carberated engine we used to think the best place was below the carb at the manifold...
but that puts a vacume on the cell and is probly not the best place when you get a large amount of Hydroxy gas volume as the engine begins to run way above idle ... and that bites!
... so above the carberator is probly the best place between the carb and the air cleaner.
...However on Fuel injected engines there has been at least 4 major hook up places and each work with their verring degree...
the first one I tried is the one I still use and that is between the Mas air sensor and the intake manafold...  but doing it this way means you must contend with the O2sensor and computer trying to Counter act the added fuel... which is not what we want.
Ltc Fisher adds his Hydroxy gas right at the mas air flow sensor from what I understand
which I asume means on the air filter box itself ( engine side of the filter)...
...
At first this sounded ok to me but I saw no real benifit of putting it there instead of at the front of the intake manifold, untill LTC Fisher said that he did not have to mess with the o2 sensor in any way... or ANY of the sensors... ! he said just let the computer sort it out....
...
It dawned on me that he might realy be on to something there... we Started off thinking we will have to fool the computer to use Hydroxy gas in the engine... that was a given....
but its possable that we realy don't have to, if the gas is put in at the proper place !
...infact its Highly probable that having to mess with the O2 sensor is BECAUSE of the imbalance caused by putting the gas in at the wrong spot !
... Fisher could be right !
...for instance.. if we inject the fuel after the Mas air flow sensor more burnable fuel is reaching the engine than the computer knows about... the o2 sensor reads this as being too
much oxigen and increases the gasoline... so we have to fool the O2 sensor.
...
 however if we inject the hydroxy gas at the top of the air filter so when its sucked into the engine the sensor takes it as Part of the burnable load... "it knows about it"
when the Hydroxy gas is then burned  and the o2 sensor detects it it will fall within the limits or within tollerance of the computer because the air flow sensor has told it its getting it !
...so with that method it should not be nessarry at all to do any further changes to the sensors at all....
   in essance its doing exactly what we'ed do for a carberated engine... put it between the air filter and the carberator.
we allready know injecting the Hydroxy gas at the intake manifold messes up the running of the engine some... yet I have been doing the same thing with my Fuel injected engine !
the results are diferent from each other but the end results are the same it don't work very good!....
...
so I will try changing the injection point and take off the O2 Condom I made ages ago
and see if that changes anything...
if My guess is right LTC Fisher hit the nail on the head and has cured the sensor problem for 90% of us.
...
these fuel injected engines are very well engineered pieces of equipment even a small infraction of gas at the wrong place would mess them up....and so we have seen !
...Instead let the engines computer think " wow that must be "Mountian air" cuz it sure has allot of oxygen in it ! hehehehehehehe but as long as it doesn't think "Hay someone is messing with my MIX !"  it won't take any drastic steps to correct it !
...
I think it will work....
I sure hope so !
...
Bob.......

[numberonekiwi]

This may work for some but I though Mass air flow sensors were hot wire therefore making it possibly unsafe to do it this way

Also how would this sensor know about the added hydrogen/oxygen does it also detect these gases the engine still only sucks ( through vacuum ) what it wants / needs the jury in my mind is still out on this one

Me needs to finalise my cell I have pulled my old one apart which was 4 banks of seven plates each in the same solution and going to put each bank in seperate solution and tune each cell with different concertrates of KOH plates are approx 4" X 5 1/2 " I pegged my P/S @ 30 amps to get about 1LPM banks were in parralel cells with 7 plate are series - hope you follow I was using about 1 or 2 teaspoons of KOH for about 1.5 to 2 ltrs of water

[Bob]

Kiwi...
thats why this is a good idea, if it works... you don't have to touch any of the sensors !
...you simpy inject the hydroxy gas on the engine side of the air filter just before the air sensor.
not after the air sensor like I have done to my truck.
...
the Idea here is that the sensor would be telling the computer its getting the right amount  of air.... regardless of whats in it... where if you put it in after the sensor it doesn't even know about it and it messes it up....
it won't sense anything except air flow at this stage... but at least it senses its volume
and that is important!...then if my suspissions are correct the Oxygen level detected by the o2 sensor will fall within tollerances for the computer...and no correction will be made.
...I think this is how LTCFisher's little truck is working...
because he hasn't had to do a thing to the sensors at all!
and is getting 45 or 47 mpg on the highway... much more in town (like 92MPG)
I think this because his computer isn't fighting him ! like ours is...so I think following his lead is a good idea !...
Bob.........

[Cowboy]

I wonder if an O2 sensor can be placed in the intake stream and let the computer compare intake levels of O2 to exhaust levels.  That would give the comp a better idea of how rich it's running.  It makes sense to me just for the O2 levels in a city compared to out in the country.

[Bob]

Why Cowboy? do you think the O2 in the city driveing would read better than on long trips ?
I don't follow ya...
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Well Bob,

I do hope putting the intake before the MAF works and if it does I'll do the same. But I'm skeptical. Years ago when I increased the size of my exhaust and added a much better air delivery system (K&N Filter Charger and after market LC Enginerring tuned exhaust headers) is when my check engine lite came on. Problem is its seeing too much air or not the correct amount of heat (since the whole exaust system is much cooler now) and throws the EFI system into 'Open Loop'. In so doing it makes the truck run in a default mode that it thinks will be beneficial for most conditions. Since I put better metal condoms on my 02 sensors and had replaced the front 02 sensor I have experienced a 4mpg increase and that is only with less than 1/2LPM. I'm still tweeking out my HHO generator and should get back to the 1.87lpm when all is said and done. But, the darn check engine lite is still glowing and giving me the error code 27 which is faulty sub sensor the one behind the CAT telling the computer the CAT is bad. By the way I can tell you how to use the built in error code scanner on those Toyota pickups if you don't already know. I think yours is around the same vintage as mine (1989 22R-E).
for what its worth,
Tink

[hg2]

    I too have to agree with Tink and no.1kiwi,my vote is that with the amount of air most motors draw I seriously doubt that sensors are going to detect not only the very little extra volume coming from the generator(a mouse poot compared to the motors LPM of air draw),but to my knowledge there are no sensors to detect what's in the air the motor draws.Also the hydroxy is still going on the same oneway path,which is the same route the end of the tailpipe.If the O2s sense extra O2 from injecting hydroxy then it stands to reason that it doesn't matter where the hydroxy enters once it gets to the combustion chamber the end result is the same.

  Call me the guy that peed in the swimming pool at the party(which is usually the case HAHAHA just kidding),but I have to stick with this until I see other concrete data proving otherwise.Sorry guys but think your chasing your tails on this one.

[Bob]

HAHAHA to each their own... I'm going to try it and see what I get...
but after Randy saying that the Muratic acid desolved the insulators  he tested....
( I have the same insulators in my 3 cells) I will probly have to rebuild the cells from
scratch now !
...
I have too many projects/Irons in the fire at the moment... so its libel to be a while till I can get around to it.
...
I do know by watching my Mass air flow sensor in action that it is a very sensitive unit
and will detect a very small change in air flow... weather its sensitive enough to detect 1LPM or not is a good question...  and that is what I am saying it would do...
So I dunno... its possible...  even if its unlikely.... but its even more LIKELY that by injecting the Hydroxy gas where we have been is causing a big imbalance and the computer is having to correct it.
 perhaps its not the ultimate cure, and more tweaking can be done to improve it even more.
...
the thing is if you get one person that this works for ,chances are good that it will work for you too... we all know without saying that it will depend on the vehicle ... thats a given... but I think its worth a try... after all you can always go back to the old way
... its possible that you can gain 10mpg in one fell swoop this way and I think thats worth a try!
...
Bob..........

[Cowboy]

Why Cowboy? do you think the O2 in the city driveing would read better than on long trips ?
I don't follow ya...
...
Bob.......

If the O2s sense extra O2 from injecting hydroxy then it stands to reason that it doesn't matter where the hydroxy enters once it gets to the combustion chamber the end result is the same.

That's why the O2 sensor in the intake would be cool.  As for the city part, have you viewed L.A. from a distance?  Like 80 miles out all you see is this brown haze.  Looks nasty, then you drive into it.  There's less Oxygen in the air.  With that thought, it stands to reason that you'll get better mpg there, because the exhaust is going to read less Oxygen, telling the comp it's running rich.  Which it is, relative to availible Oxygen, but it's not, relative to air volume.  An air sampler telling the computer what kind of air it's recieving would allow it to better calculate required fuel.  More Oxygen = less fuel. 

[Tink]

Bob,
You might have something there. It is worth a try. If it works for you I'll try it. I experienced that horrable dark coffee looking stuff to day when I took the lid off the smack booster. This happened after I tried 20% denatured  aholcol. I've been running it this way for a week and still got a 1mpg gain at only 5amps (not a decrease as before I messed with the 02 sensors) so I cleaned it up in a solution of 1/2 muratic acid and 1/2 distilled water and in 15 minutes it was shinny and new looking again. A lot of brown chunky looking stuff came out of the cell. This next tank full will tell the tale. I think I'm finally on the right track. I'll be using a heat tape raped around the cell on the cold nites so not to freeze but will use the nedatured alchol and distilled water in the bubbler. I'm waiting patientingly for the outcome of your mooving the hho intake to the rear of the Mass air flow meter.
Tink

[Bob]

Ack... to the FRONT of the sensor , not the rear of it Tink....
between the air filter and the sensor...the plastic hood is where I plan to stuff it in at
...the O'l pocket knife and RTV Silicone method! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
....
can't do it today... tomarrow maybe but I doubt it, I got that Cilica to get running so My wife will leave my truck alone ! HAHAHAHHAH
....
Bob..........

[Bob]

Another person also said the best place is to inject the Hydroxy gas directly into the air box...
His reasoning is that it allows the Hydroxy gas time to mix evenly with the air...
 Not a bad idea at all really !
...
I was trying to fit my Switch plate cover cell in a 4" ABS pipe this morning but no luck... its just a touch to wide for that ! ...Aurgh!  I have 4 containers out there and not one of them will allow the cell to fit in it !...  Such is Life ! LOL
...
Bob.....

[crb]

Bob, you can always get the clear container from wal-mart with the snap-closed lid.

crb

[Tink]

Bob,
I've had my hho geny all packed away as I'm working on that wind turbine and that is taking all my spare time. I look at it sometimes and think 'I really need to get this thing going again...but' Then I saw gas is up to $2.73 today in Concho and I think as soon as I get the wind turbine going I'll get back on the hho geny. The murphy valve is a problem for me cause the place i need to connect it to the intake is small, I gotta take a re-look at that too.
Tink