b1jetmech
Jr. Member
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« on: November 11, 2008, 11:22:22 am » |
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 Here are the plates and home made gasket. As you can see one of the plates is "roughed" up on the surface for better bubble release.  Assembly...going together  The finished product. 6 cells, 37 plates. Will install soon. |
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randy
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« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2008, 11:27:27 am » |
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Looks good, but after saturation won't the paper gaskets become conductive?
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b1jetmech
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Posts: 60
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« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2008, 11:55:14 am » |
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Thanks! I don't know about the paper gaskets!? Here, we'll someone else answer that for us because I honestly don't know.  |
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b1jetmech
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« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2008, 12:01:52 pm » |
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OOPS!
I forgot to mention further description. The plates are 2.75" by 8" 316 series. They were originally to used on another generator project but changed the design halfway through.
The PVC plates are 1", I got a good deal on them which is why they are so thick!
The generator design is as two ports, water in on the bottom and H2 out of the top port.
It's gonna be installed to a 96' Suburban.
More to come,,
Chase
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Bob
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2008, 12:46:00 pm » |
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WHOLEY COW ! what a Monster !
if looks will do it then that one takes the cake ! ...
I dunno about the gasket's but I suspect Randy knows already... paper will assorb water and sense the water in this case is conductive they will probly short out the plates!
... ya need diferent gasket meterial me thinks !
...
I hope you have a bunch of amps to throw at that thing... 40 amps just ain't going to cut it
as big as it is I am guessing at 150 amps min....
but you should have enough to get way up in the 75 to 80 MPG range in that Sub !
...
Good work and very nicely done !
...
Bob..........
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2008, 02:03:05 pm » |
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I really like the looks of that cell. The only thing is the paper is going to be a conductor after it gets soaked with electrolite. What are the end plates made of?
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b1jetmech
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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2008, 02:39:12 pm » |
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The end plates? I believe you mean the PVC ends? They're PVC...LOL
The plates themselves are 316 stainless steel.
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2008, 02:40:31 pm » |
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Paper gaskets will conduct?! NOOOOOOO!
Somebody punch me...PUNCH ME!!!
It took a long time to make those gaskets, where could I get rubber material for gaskets?
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2008, 02:48:16 pm » |
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I know some guys use that shower pan gasket material from Lowes and Home depot. If I remember correctly it is .040thk.
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Bob
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2008, 02:59:18 pm » |
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Sorry Chase ! thats the consencious !
I think I'ed try the gaskets ya went to all the truble to make though... you never know
it might be water proof paper or something... looks like cerial box cardboard though <grin>
innertubes won't work unless you find some that don't conduct... most will conduct electricity fairly well though!
some one mentioned shower gasket meterial before...
perhaps a Pond liner meterial would work but take your VTOM with you to check for continuity before buying it even a small resistance is not good to use.
hard plexyglass strips would provide the spaceing and you could use RTV silicone to seal up the joints and a bead all around the inside edge should seal it....
floor mats might work if you can find some smothe flat ones...
...
or maybe even use the gaskets you have just run a bead of RTV silicone along the inside edge to seal the gaskets up ?
... its a thought !
...
Bob........
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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randy
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2008, 04:28:14 pm » |
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a lot of the fabric stores carry vinyl sheets in different thicknesses and colors, the kind of stuff they use to make soft top windows.
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oldntrd
Newbie
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2008, 06:39:36 pm » |
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Your thoughts guys,
To re-make all these gaskets is going to be a lot of work that might be avoided. Do you think maybe they could be saturation painted with an acid resistent spar varnish, urethane or epoxy to save them?
R
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2008, 06:52:29 pm » |
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I think I would take a chance and go with oldntrd suggestion and try to isolate the gaskets with some kind of sealer.
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Bob
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2008, 07:23:04 pm » |
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I'ed just silicone the inside edge of each gasket and slap it togather !
...
Sure is a nice build... I Wish I had that one ! HAHAHAHHAHA
...
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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candyman55
Full Member
Posts: 117
Custom Cabinet Maker
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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2008, 08:29:11 pm » |
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You may be pleasantly surprised if the paper is not conductive now it probably won't give you any trouble. If they do short try spar varnish for gasket sealer. But I wouldn't use it unless they did short.
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2008, 10:39:50 pm » |
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How about this, I will soak a gasket and see if there is any water saturation if not then I will go for the install.
If there is materiel available at lowes or Home Depot then I might go for the trouble of making more gaskets....come on, it's only 38 gaskets! LOL!
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2008, 10:41:04 pm » |
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Bob you said this may take 150 amps?! WOW! That's enough to bring Frankenstein to life HA HA!  If I go that high then I'll have to add another battery and 200 amp alternator to power that. |
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numberonekiwi
Jr. Member
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« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2008, 04:06:44 am » |
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I think first off with the paper insulators give it a go if it fails then try soaking each one maybe in hot wax or as suggested varnish or maybe clear lacure
If 150 amps is correct that could net you around 15 LPM I think should be almost enuff to run a small engine alone
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Manta
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« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2008, 06:26:40 am » |
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At 1800 Watt power consumption you can probably make toast on it if you get hungry.  Manta |
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Good questions have a sting in the tail.
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Bob
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« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2008, 10:16:01 am » |
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YAH thats the ticket ... Toster/Hydroxy cell ! all in one ! heheheheh
thats why I like that cell it has the ear marks of a very HIGH output cell but you won't get HIGH output if you don't give it the amps... you can probly idle it along at 40 to 60 amps and be quite happy with it... and probly not have much of a heat problem...
as Manta said if you used the 150amps I sujested it will create a bunch of heat!
and a cooling system will no doubt be needed... 1800watts is more than my electric heater behind me puts out... its max is 1500watts.... so you know it will make HEAT like its going out of style !
... but you don't get high output for free !
...
Bob......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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Manta
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« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2008, 10:54:59 am » |
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Thing is Bob, do you get steam ? What is the expected temperature in the cell ?
Manta
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Good questions have a sting in the tail.
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Bob
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« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2008, 12:04:13 pm » |
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Manta:
I don't care if I get steam...the engine devours it very nicely anyway......so who cares?
...
everyone is so concerned about produceing water vapor/steam and I don't share the concern
I ran a water injector for too long and Know the water vapor don't hurt a thing !
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Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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randy
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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2008, 01:35:42 pm » |
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steam is one of my pet peeves, I've found cold gas is better gas, if your measuring LPM from a steaming cell you're getting ripped off, I've filled balloons with cold gas, they float away like good helium, but when I fill a balloon with a steaming cell the balloon doesn't fly, it sinks to the ground.
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Bob
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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2008, 01:54:03 pm » |
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Sure Less bang for the buck ...but if you get 4 times the output only a part of that is steam
and the rest is hydroxy gas...
though you could have it the other way around and all of it be steam but a tiny portion
hehehehehe
Guess you'll Have to keep the temps down to some degree or all you'ed have is a Boiling kettle! HAHAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2008, 09:31:17 pm » |
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I just the shower floor gasket and it looks good. Wish I could have used it first but, Oh well. I should get htese gaskets done by tomorrow and put back together Friday.
Thanks for everyone's input.
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2008, 09:52:38 pm » |
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I can't wait to see the numbers for that cell.
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Bob
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« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2008, 12:35:48 pm » |
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take a couple of Pics with the new gaskets as its going to gather again Please...
can't have too many pictures of a well built cell ! <GRIN>
good luck !
give your Blisters a break every once in a while... ware gloves to give your hands a break even... cutting gaskets can be mean on the hands!
... wares your skin off faster than sand paper!
...
Bob...
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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Ed
Newbie
Posts: 12
Man of few words due to lack of typing skills.
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« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2008, 08:20:58 pm » |
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randy
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« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 07:19:42 am » |
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find something made of neoprene and test with KOH
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2008, 09:03:34 am » |
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I have neoprene in all my dry cells and haven't had a problem yet. I even stuck a piece in muriatic acid and that didn't effect it after 30min.
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wess
Newbie
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« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2008, 04:53:54 pm » |
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A cheap source of gasket material may be the cheap school notebook binders.
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Bob
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« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2008, 04:49:19 am » |
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HAY b1jetmech: Have you got those gaskets made yet ? have ya tested that monster cell ? ... Come on man keep us up to date on that thing ! how about some Pic's  ... Bob........ |
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2008, 09:24:55 am » |
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Hey Bob, Excuse my absents, broken cars, broken house and sick kids have temporary pulled me away from the project. I'm about half way through in getting them done. (It won't take long, a half a days work) these "life" issues have been popping up like a "Jack-in-a-box! LOL! My test vehicle for this unit is a 96' Suburban with a vortec 350. Guess what, I heard the rod knock at start up yesterday  So it will need a new engine eventually. I will go ahead and install this unit and if the rod knock gets real bad then I will replace the engine. Here is what I'm thinking, by taking advantage of the engine situation, I might remove the fuel injection stuff and put on a carburetor so if run alot of H2 through this motor there will be no issues with the computer...so I'm thinking about doing that. Think I'm Crazy?  |
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Bob
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« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2008, 02:45:31 pm » |
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HAHAH by no means !
think I'ed do the same thing !
but its a far site cheeper to rebuild an engine ,than it is to replace it... unless you can find an engine thats cheep...
I bought allot of my engine parts through J.C.Whitney.com when I rebuilt the VW van
and it only cost me a couple hundred bucks ...that was a long time ago though<GRIN>
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before I'ed do anything to that Sub I'ed change the oil to stright 40 wt and get away from the multigrade crap ... it will probly last you another 2 years or so if ya do that !
...
just a sujestion !
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Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2008, 10:09:22 pm » |
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Hello again, I didn't realize how long it's been since I posted. Well, to get up to speed, the generator has the the new gaskets and waiting for the hardware to to be installed. What's been setting me back is the weather. It's been so cold that I can't work in the garage. In the month of December we've received 60 inches of snow! To compare to last winter...the total was 108". Were more then halfway there! So, this weekend will be warm enough to install the generator onto the Suburban. Also, I have started another generator  More refine then this one. After the new year, I'm getting the parts made. So there you have it I will be talking to you all soon in a couple of days... Merry Christmas! Chase |
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Bob
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« Reply #35 on: December 25, 2008, 11:37:44 am » |
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Merry Christmass to you and Yours Chase !
Summer is coming ...have faith ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2009, 03:14:35 pm » |
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Here is the cell with wiring installed. The wiring might have to bundled for future clearances.  Side view of wire connections  Because of no room under the hood on Vortec equipped Chevy trucks, this will be the location where the generator will be mounted under the Suburban. Also, there is no room in front of the radiator! However, the bubbler will be installed in the engine compartment.  Chase |
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Bob
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« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2009, 10:35:10 pm » |
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WOOT... FANTASTIC ! now feed it with #4 wire(or heavier)
and you should be set....
Please give us a good accurate LPM reading for that cell, and amps used !
...
I realy Like the heavy wires to the plates! you were thinking ahead and it shows ! GOOD MAN!
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if your going to mount it under the truck give some serious thought to a crash shield to protect it from things like jack rabbits , rocks and j-walkers,and other such road hazards!
ehhehehehhe
....
an alum plat 1/8" thick bolted on the under side would keep dirt and stuff off the plates and probly help prevent a short out as well as add some cooling capasity , just bolt it to the end blocks let it over hang on both ends and bend the short over hang to help deflect stuff down...
...its a thought anyway...
Congrats on a very well built cell !
Bob........
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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scratch1676
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« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2009, 08:30:14 am » |
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i thought the arrow in the picture was pointing to the installation of the ejector seat. When he kicks that monster cell on that thing is going to look like the space shuttle taking off. he he Good Luck I hope it improves your mileage.
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always buy a good bed and a good pair of shoes because you will always be in one of them.
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2009, 10:26:34 am » |
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WOOT... FANTASTIC ! now feed it with #4 wire(or heavier)
and you should be set....
Please give us a good accurate LPM reading for that cell, and amps used !
...
I realy Like the heavy wires to the plates! you were thinking ahead and it shows ! GOOD MAN!
...
if your going to mount it under the truck give some serious thought to a crash shield to protect it from things like jack rabbits , rocks and j-walkers,and other such road hazards!
ehhehehehhe
....
an alum plat 1/8" thick bolted on the under side would keep dirt and stuff off the plates and probly help prevent a short out as well as add some cooling capasity , just bolt it to the end blocks let it over hang on both ends and bend the short over hang to help deflect stuff down...
...its a thought anyway...
Congrats on a very well built cell !
Bob........
Hey Bob, where do you get #4 wiring? Stores like Autozone don't have anything that big. Should I check out a car stereo shop? LOL! I think big because I worked on Heavy bombers and aircraft most my life The best thing to do is "over engineer it" Which will have more safety factors built in. When I was under the hood, I searched and searched and could not find any good place to locate this generator. That's when I decided to install it underneath and shield it. I like the suburban's square frame so the generator can be tucked up in there. I want to put the amp gauge in side on the dash. Will I have to run #4 wire into the cab and then back out? Chase |
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b1jetmech
Jr. Member
Posts: 60
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« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2009, 10:28:06 am » |
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i thought the arrow in the picture was pointing to the installation of the ejector seat. When he kicks that monster cell on that thing is going to look like the space shuttle taking off. he he Good Luck I hope it improves your mileage.
" PULL TO EXTRACT FLYBOY" is what the little yellow and black placard says...LOL! Thanks scratch. Say, what's the best mileage you have gotten with yours? Chase |
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scratch1676
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« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2009, 11:53:22 am » |
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buy #4 wire at Lowes or Home Depot or any store that sells to your local Electricians. You can buy it as a single wire or you can pay more and have it in a bundle ( similar to extension cord for a big motor of some kind ). I am still fighting the situation with my computer right now. I havent had alot of time right now to work on it but in the next week or so I will be doing alot of posting of either my failures or progress so stay turned.
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always buy a good bed and a good pair of shoes because you will always be in one of them.
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Bob
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« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2009, 08:42:11 pm » |
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Chase: Like Scratch said Lowes or any good Hardware store should have Farely Flexable #4 cable
but as scratch said if its like a long extension cord with realy heavy insulation and the number of strands in the hundreds its extreamily expensive... the #4 wire I have is a lead in from a telephone pole... its not very flexable , but you can bend it in any shape you want , but I doubt it would take many many flexings before it breaks... so secure it well so it doesn't flex allot and you should be fine.
....
about the AMP meter... in that type of siduation where your running that many amps and that heavy of wire you would be better off to get a Amp guage with a sending unit on it so you don't have to run the heavy cables to the dash and back... the sending unit can be located next to the cell ans a small wire then goes to the dash guage.... their fairly expensive but probly your best bet.
....
and I agree whole hartedly with you on "OVER-KILL" when in doubt, build it stronger than it needs to be !.... ...the SUB can handle the added weight ! don't worry about that ! <GRIN>
..
Now a question for you !
are you going to make some sort of a re-curculateing system and something to cool down the electrolyte ? and what amperage are you planning on running on the cell ?
...
a recurculateing bubbler and then a normal bubbler might be all it will take to keep the cell cool, but it will need cooling fins on it... its possable that you could mount it behind the front grill, hard to say....ir perhaps infront of the front wheel behind the fender well, there is allot of room there but very little air curculation....
...
getting the cell built is actually fun...the hard part comes when you have to figure out what you have to do to get the better gas milage... if you can get 8 to 10LPM out of that cell ( however many amps that takes) then you should be able to get 50mpg or better... BUT... you have to lean out the gasoline that the engine is currently getting in order to achieve that !
... Goodluck !
..
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
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« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2009, 11:44:49 pm » |
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Chase: Like Scratch said Lowes or any good Hardware store should have Farely Flexable #4 cable
but as scratch said if its like a long extension cord with realy heavy insulation and the number of strands in the hundreds its extreamily expensive... the #4 wire I have is a lead in from a telephone pole... its not very flexable , but you can bend it in any shape you want , but I doubt it would take many many flexings before it breaks... so secure it well so it doesn't flex allot and you should be fine. Bob, I'm not messing around  I just went to a large home improvement store and got the 4 gage wire. Along with it got clips so installation will look more professional. The wire is heavy duty just as you say and looking forward to installing it. about the AMP meter... in that type of siduation where your running that many amps and that heavy of wire you would be better off to get a Amp guage with a sending unit on it so you don't have to run the heavy cables to the dash and back... the sending unit can be located next to the cell ans a small wire then goes to the dash guage.... their fairly expensive but probly your best bet. Oh do tell me where I can get one of these. Honestly I never heard of a "sending unit" along with gauge but sounds user friendly to install in the dash and not have to worry about large power wires going in and out of the dash. I'll do a search for this style of AMP gauge. Now a question for you !
are you going to make some sort of a re-curculateing system and something to cool down the electrolyte ? and what amperage are you planning on running on the cell? a recurculateing bubbler and then a normal bubbler might be all it will take to keep the cell cool, but it will need cooling fins on it... its possable that you could mount it behind the front grill, hard to say....ir perhaps infront of the front wheel behind the fender well, there is allot of room there but very little air curculation.... So far I planned on a regular bubbler. For starters I will run it at 30-35 amps because of stock recharging system. Once I get another battery then I will increase the AMPS, then a higher capacity Alternator...MORE AMPS! So at 30-35 amps I don't think it will heat up. If it does heat up what are some good tips for the Bubbler? What is a recirculating bubbler? I have not seen one...time to educate! I checked behind the front grill and unfortunately there is no room because there two coolers along with the AC condenser and there is no room for this cell behind the grill  getting the cell built is actually fun...the hard part comes when you have to figure out what you have to do to get the better gas milage... if you can get 8 to 10LPM out of that cell ( however many amps that takes) then you should be able to get 50mpg or better... BUT... you have to lean out the gasoline that the engine is currently getting in order to achieve that !
... Goodluck !
..
Bob....... Again, thanks for your tips and resources to help me get this done. 50 MPG sounds good! I don't think it's far fetched either. Chase |
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b1jetmech
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« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2009, 12:02:07 am » |
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Here is a bracket to mount the generator under the Suburban.  Here it is with the generator installed..a perfect fit!  Here it is just positioned for fit. It's location is behind the torsion bar cross frame.  Same view further back.  Side view.  Hopefully I can get this drilled and bolted in soon. Chase |
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Bob
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« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2009, 03:37:12 am » |
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Ummmm Chase !
ya got a problem there and don't know it yet !
the cell should be UP RIGHT... not laying down... BECAUSE if its laying down half of the cells will fill with gas and be useless and not produce any more Hydroxy gas !
...
that way with the electrolyte inlet at the bottom and the gas outlet at the top you will only loose down to the top outlet hole from collected gas between each plate....
also it might be wize to learn from others here and have 2 inlets and 2 outlets one on each side
... sorry to rain on your parade but you realy need to stand that turkey UP right !
other wise, you'll loose half of its output stright off the bat!
...
now... a recirculating tank is very simple and I'll try and post a pic of one in the building a hydroxy generator section .
as far as the Amp meter goes someone posted a link a while back that was for a site that had all kinds of amp meters , some had the sending units, and some didn't, the ones that did were quite a bit more expensive.... other than that I don't remember who sold them...sorry... Hopefully someone will post the link again for ya !
...
Bob....
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« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 04:09:55 am by Bob »
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2009, 04:46:00 am » |
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Actually Bob Chase has it right except he only needs to install his outlet fittings near the top instead of halfway up.If you've watched any youtubes showing generators running that have clear acrylic the bubbles are all concentrated at the top of the plates.Laid on it's side this cell will produce more than having standing longways,that way the bubbles have a shorter distance to travel before being released,instead of them all bunching up trying to escape through a smaller space.
Chase if this was my cell I'd install two outlet fittings(maybe 3 depending on how long it is) on that cell as high up as you can go and near the spacer gaskets,and run separate hoses from each going to the bubbler to insure good gas flow.On my dry cell I have the outlet hole partially into the spacer gasket to utilize all the plate area I can.My Tero design is not a fully flooded one but there's not much plate space being wasted having the outlet holes as far up as they can go.
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Manta
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« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2009, 08:43:49 am » |
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hg2,
re,....the bubbles are all concentrated at the top of the plates...
I was wondering if this is due to the electricity always taking the easiest route and the plates (usually) being connected at the top. I mentioned earlier that the resistance of the plate increases as you move away from the supply terminal. Maybe only the top part of the plate is doing any work ?
Manta
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b1jetmech
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Posts: 60
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« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2009, 09:35:01 am » |
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I Have a water pump (I gal/min.) I can install that to force water through.
Let me do some measuring and checking and maybe I can put up front but yet I' all ready skeptical.
Chase
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hg2
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« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2009, 04:24:47 pm » |
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hg2,
re,....the bubbles are all concentrated at the top of the plates...
I was wondering if this is due to the electricity always taking the easiest route and the plates (usually) being connected at the top. I mentioned earlier that the resistance of the plate increases as you move away from the supply terminal. Maybe only the top part of the plate is doing any work ?
Manta
Manta I'm not sure either why the bubbles form at the top,all I know is after watching countless youtubes of cells running,one thing I've always noticed is all the bubbles are at the top and you really don't see any forming below that.Even though I don't know why it's always lead me to believe that short plates laid longways up would be a better producer than one that's run the opposite.I've been trying to decide how I want to reconfigure my large plates on the cell I run now(the slice and dice project) to either 4 smaller teros or 2 configured with the long side up.When I built the large cell last year I was thinking like a lot of people do that bigger is better.I'm starting to lean towards the opposite and go with multiple smaller cells for more production drawing near the same amperage I am now. If anyone knows the answer to this please chime in,I'd really like to know |
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janmarsh
Full Member
Posts: 168
Marine Engineer
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« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2009, 05:03:39 pm » |
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hg2,
A past comment by Randy mentioned a funnel effect from the centre hole of the washer cell.
This is the only recollection I have which indicates other than top production.
I, like Manta am laying my bets on a Randy Cell design, square plates rather than washers, 50mm square with drilled holes giving the same plate surface area as the two inch washer. I'm pretty certain this type of close proximity plate ( washer ) design has to produce most HHO from edges.
Marshall.
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« Last Edit: January 07, 2009, 05:07:40 pm by janmarsh »
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My Wife admits to maybe having faults...... but being wrong is'nt one of them.
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2009, 10:15:09 pm » |
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When I had my bath cells in clear acrylic you could see small bubbles forming at the bottom of plates. I'm not sure if the whole surface of the plates produce like that and the bubbles congregate at the top. Or the bottom produces small bubbles and you get larger bubbles the closer to the top you get. Didn't really pay attention at the time.
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Bob
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« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2009, 04:37:44 am » |
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B1JetMechanic:
Chase, if the cell has an air pocket in it...a place where the gas will collect and cannot escape
all the forcing of water through the cell in the world will not fill the container... because the gas has NO where to go... "if you lay the cell on its side half of the cell will be useless" at least the way you have it now...
I don't care what the Youtube videos say... your not going to get rid of a air pocket by pumping water into the cell, it might compress a little but it will still be there and fill back up as much as it can as gas is produced even at a slight pressure... you need an outlet on the top !
...
I was thinking that you might be able to turn the cell 90deg and lay the cell with the plates horizontally.... that way the outlet would be on top and inlet on the bottom... BUT sense the plates are horizontal they will trap gas all the time and render it useless in a hart-beat. even forcing electrolyte in with the plates horizontal you'ed still have a problem with the bubbles puddling on the plates... trying to go up and can't... so the plates oriented vertically I think is a must, but You'll probably need to relocate the intake and outlet holes... or perhaps just ADD more of them and "T" to both of them....
....
You could always mount the thing on the front bumper and tell everyone its a "conversation piece"
give it a chrome cover and air holes it would look great.
another thing you might consider along with the Extra Barb fittings at the top edge of the plate and the bottom edge of the plate is a passage hole in each plate to allow the gas to escape to the outlet
and water to inter to each plate area.
And also tilting the cell a bit to alow the bubbles to flow to the top cornor... like a 1/2" to 1"
is probably all it would need and that too would save plate area from being lost in an air pocket.
....
Look at it and amagon the cell in operation, and see what the bubbles are going to do...
they will go UP first and try to flow in the waters direction... but the outlet for the gas to excape is in the center width of the cell so the gas will collect in the cell till the water level is decreased to the half way point and then the gas will be able to excape the cell...
in the proccess you will Loose 1/2 the working capability of the cell.
... if you can see what I'm saying , then you'll understand the problem but if not well I tried to tell ya ! HAHAHAHAHHAA so try it your way, then fix it later I guess ! HEHEHEHE <GRIN>
...
NO realy ! think about IT !
...
Bob.........
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hg2
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« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2009, 04:50:08 am » |
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Janmarsh I'm not so sure about the shape,there's a vid on youtube that shows a Stan Meyers design with SS tubes that as soon as the voltage is switched on instantly there's a cloud of bubbles at the top of the tubes.Btw this builder of the S/M cell in the vid didn't use a resonance drive or toroidal coil set up regarding power configuration,it was just regular bench voltage with a battery charger like we all use.
I've seen the same effect on other vids with Smack's and Tero designs that used clear acrylic housings doing the exact same thing.So I'm not sure why it does this,perhaps the small amount of pressure down at the bottom of the cell from the e-lyte forces the bubbles to form slower than at the top where there's less pressure,I know I'm kinda shootin from the hip saying that but there must be a reason it happens.
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janmarsh
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Marine Engineer
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« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2009, 10:11:54 am » |
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hg2,
I totally agree with you. Upper area of all cell designs seem to show a greater production at top.
Your comment on cell design being broader in width & reduced in height is something to really consider.
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My Wife admits to maybe having faults...... but being wrong is'nt one of them.
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ROADKING
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« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2009, 12:40:55 pm » |
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I bought a 100 amp gauge off of ebay with a shunt, then you can install the shunt where ever and run 2 small wire to the gauge, Take a look at them and I think you will understand what I am saying.
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janmarsh
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Posts: 168
Marine Engineer
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« Reply #56 on: January 08, 2009, 12:58:39 pm » |
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Roadking, Is that the blue digital unit ?
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My Wife admits to maybe having faults...... but being wrong is'nt one of them.
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ROADKING
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« Reply #57 on: January 08, 2009, 01:20:47 pm » |
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NO, I tried the digital and burnt it up so then i just used the simple on with the numbers on it, and it works great
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janmarsh
Full Member
Posts: 168
Marine Engineer
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« Reply #58 on: January 08, 2009, 02:59:10 pm » |
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ROADKING,
Analog ? This one ?
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My Wife admits to maybe having faults...... but being wrong is'nt one of them.
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scratch1676
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« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2009, 01:58:30 am » |
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the digital amp meters will burn up if you dont use a voltage isolator on them. your digital amp meter and your current you are measuring cant have the same ground connection so the isolator fixes this. The digital amp meter uses a shunt the same way as the dial type.
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always buy a good bed and a good pair of shoes because you will always be in one of them.
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Tink
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« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2009, 06:59:00 am » |
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The shunt thing is what we use in solar applications and it is a great idea to use in HHO setups. I've only had to use a ground wire with a battery meter (all battery meters for solar have ammeters) for an install I did where the meter had to be 250 feet away from the power source. Being able to use 14 to 18gage wire to the ammeter is a real plus. the voltage isolator must be builtin with the battery monitors we use in solar but these tipically cost $160 to $250 but they give you all kinds of info much more than we need for hho setups.
My 2 cents
Tink
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Old Tink proberb: Don't hesitate, just do it!
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ROADKING
Jr. Member
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« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2009, 10:16:51 am » |
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YES that is the one I use
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abe
Newbie
Posts: 26
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« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2009, 10:37:20 pm » |
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OK can I jump in here. Your cell looks good,glad to see your not useing that paper gastet anymore.. the working area looks about 2x7 if thats right let me throw some munbers at you. These are numbers I have read not mine. If your working area is 2x7 nnd 37 plates thats 1148 sq in working .25 watts per sq inch (a number cell peak at before getting hot) is 287 watts now at 14 volts(Working number for alternatur)20.5 amps. That should be the amps works best for a cell thet size if fully flooded. 5 mill per min per watt should be what youll get .1435 milliliters is what this shoud get. If I'm right this might help in your wireing, if not I tried.
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Bob
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« Reply #63 on: January 11, 2009, 03:16:22 am » |
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Or... another way....
1148sqr.in. x0.036= 41.328LPM
0.36 x 1148sqrin.= 413.28 AMPS
...
so at .36 amps per square inch it will take 413.28 amps to get that kind of production.
if you get 0.036 LPM per square inch from the 1148 sqr.in. you'll get 41.32 LPM
...
However this is using the "Randy Cell" as a base-line and I doubt you can hope to achieve the same output per square inch as one of those cells, but its always possible
a more reasonable figure would be in the .028 area...instead of the .036 figure.
...
that works like so...
1148sqr x 0.028= 32.14 LPM
0.28api x1148 = 321 amps
....
if you plug in just 20 amps to all that plate area... watch what happens...
20amps/1148sqr=.01742 api
with only 0.01742 amps per square inch. you will be lucky to get 2LPM !
...
I think you should plan on at least 100amps to that cell !
but pushing that kind of power will mean heat... and you will have to cool it (cool the electrolyte)
...
remember the 10:1 rule of thumb? for every 10 amps you can get 1LPM.... this is in a "PERFECT CELL" however.... so if you want 10LPM you will need 100amps ... chances are you'll get slightly less than 10LPM for 100 amps
...
a big cell and small amps is a waste... because they don't hardly produce at all
your much better off with a small cell when useing small amps... but the same applies to big cells... big cells need big amps to make them work !
...
its all in the Amps per square inch ! anywhere from 0.2 to 0.5 is going to produce...
the "Randy Cell" is at 0.3 amps per square inch and it produces at a 10:1 ratio
...
thats the problem with big cells in order to get it to produce like it should you'll have to feed it enough power to get the amps per square inch up to .3 api .....on a big cell that means A huge amount of amperage !
....
fwiw
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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janmarsh
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Posts: 168
Marine Engineer
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« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2009, 04:58:46 am » |
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Bob, Let us clarify & confirm a couple of points. Randy is controlling temperature by wiring "Randy Mk1" cells in groups of three in series. When fully heated, output gained is two litres per min. at 20 amps. 20 amps is being shared by three cells, ie 33 plates (washers). What amperage per sq. inch of active plate face do you arrive at with this understanding ? |
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My Wife admits to maybe having faults...... but being wrong is'nt one of them.
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abe
Newbie
Posts: 26
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« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2009, 09:42:35 am » |
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Bob 1435X.028 (APSI on the highside) =32.14 Amps not LPN
at .28 anps per squre inch your boiling water
OK I'm backing out now didn't want to start trouble just wanted to help.
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Manta
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« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2009, 10:14:05 am » |
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b1jetmech,
How are the plates connected in your cell ? Apologies if you've already posted it somewhere, but i can't find it.
There seems to be some disagreement on how to count the 'working area' of cells. I recon that you count only the area of the negative plates that have a corresponding positive plate opposite. Thus you will always have 1 more positive plate than you do negative plates.
i.e a single 10 * 10 negative plate in between two 10 * 10 positive plates equals 100 * 2 = 200 sqr" . If the amp draw was 10 Amp then it would give 0.05 Amp/ sqr".
Do we agree on this ?
This becomes a bit confusing with the series (Terro) type cells.
Manta
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randy
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« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2009, 11:13:57 am » |
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from my experience you never know what the output is going to be on a new build, there's so many variables to consider, I had one smack type that wasn't producing well, for some reason? I torqued the bolts, didn't really notice any change in the appearance of the cell but the output went up??
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Bob
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« Reply #68 on: January 11, 2009, 02:53:40 pm » |
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janmarsh:
Ok, the Randy cell MK1 has approx 55sqr inches in it
fed with 20 amps it will produce 2LPM( I am talking about 1 cell not 3!)
I am counting only one side of each plate, and I really think Manta's idea of counting each side with a corresponding pos plate is a better method but thats besides the point.
...
Abe: Your probably right, I went through it fairly fast because I was on my way to bed <GRIN>....
The idea here that I was trying to get accross was that if you compaired a known working cell ( the Randy cell) with his new cell you can estimate the output and amp draw
thats all.
but I admit I did a lousie job of it <GRIN>
...
Manta: in the randy cell there is 11 plates 5 negitive 6 positive.... each negitive plate is covered by a positive plate on both sides, so I suppose each negitive plate should be counted on both sides so that 10x3.5149x2" for the area of the circle minus the 1/2" hole in each which would be 3.14159x0.5" and subtract that from each plate area... for 10 plates should give you the area...
if you then take the total area in square inches and devide 20 amps into it you should get amps per square inch...
then with Amps per square inch you can take the known 2LPM and calculate what every square inch of plate area will produce....
thats the idea here... although I screwed it up (sorry guys!)
I'm operateing on sleep depisit right now! AHAHAHAHAHA
...
anyway, I still maintain you need big amps for big cells !
...
and Abe your almost assuradly correct that 0.28API will boil the water, thats why I mentioned a cooling system.... however without that higher amps per square inch figure
the cell will produce very LOW in the LPM market
...
NOTICE that each of us is counting the plates diferently and we need a STANDARD way of doing it, so I sujest we use Manta's method counting just the negitive plates that have a positive plate next to it... note however that that won't work on a neutral plate cell
...
my 2 coppers !
Bob......
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 04:15:50 am by Bob »
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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b1jetmech
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« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2009, 11:34:55 pm » |
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b1jetmech,
How are the plates connected in your cell ? Apologies if you've already posted it somewhere, but i can't find it.
Manta
No Problem, here is how the plates are wired. Is this what your were thinkning? And here |
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hg2
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« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2009, 05:15:45 am » |
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I've always gone by a 1/4 amp per sq.in,at least this is what I've read and my tero draws this to a tee.The way I've always heard it is you figure the sq.in. of two adjacent plates then divide by 4 (1/4 amp per sq.in.).B1jetmechs cell operates as like 6 separate generators with the multi plate design so after figuring the two adjacent plate verses amps equation that number would be times by 6,which should be close to what kind of amp draw it'll have.
So the area of two 2"x7" plates is 28 sq.in. divided by 4 (1/4 amp per sq.in.) = 7 times 6 = 42 amps. I think the output of B1jetmechs generator will be just over 4 LPM.
Btw I didn't subtract the plate area lost by the width of the flange of the spacer gaskets,so the amp draw and output of this equation could be less depending on the width of the flange.
These calculations are also based on a 7 plates per cell configuration,if you're running less than that the amp draw will be considerably higher.
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Bob
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« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2009, 07:05:33 am » |
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hG2:
I'll go along with the 1/4 amp per sqr inch, 0.25 is in the ball park and should produce well.....
but I disagree on your assessment of Bomberboys cell<GRIN> it has 3 seperate cells in it, not 6.... 3 black leads are the neg feed lines and they are the center of each cell so just 3 cells which are bordered by Positive plates with neutrals inbetween the pos and neg in both directions... a very good design which should produce a good amount because the seperation between the driven plates is not very far at all ! ...
....
I think allot like Randy in the Pridiction of output department goes, although I have tried many times to calculate the output, in reality its very hard indeed to come up with a accurate method to predict what the output will be ... or even be CLOSE to being !
...
My first cell I had calculated that I should get 20LPM out of it... I got 1/4LPM at 20 amps!......a bit less than optimum ! HEHEHEHHEHEHE !
but I have learned a thing or two sense then and I believe we are getting better at predicting output.... but its still very much guess work.
As Randy said there is just too many variables to consider that realy make a big diference in the output!
...
I bet your guestimate will be very very close indeed to the actual output though...
that sounds about right to me ! <GRIN>
...
Bob....
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Manta
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« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2009, 11:24:50 am » |
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I suppose one way would be to get an old car battery and remove the plates. Then build up the unit with say, three plates (+-+) in each of the old cell spaces. You would have to be careful to get the external interconnections correct, but you would be sure that each cell was isolated from the next. Any takers ? Manta who hasn't been in his shed and done anything useful for two week 'cause it's too damn cold. |
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hg2
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« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2009, 03:55:43 pm » |
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Count them again Bob the neg. goes both ways,towards each pos.So in between each neg. and pos. is like a separate cell or actually I should say generator.
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« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 07:23:01 pm by hg2 »
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Bob
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« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2009, 07:17:09 pm » |
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Hg2 :
Right... so between the 2 pos wires is 1 cell not 2
... I suppose that depends on your outlook, so its really not that important <GRIN>
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you can just as easily say each side of the neg terminal is a separate cell because of the flow of electrons, their going in opposite directions.
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but I didn't see that at first look ! hehehe
Sorry... just another one of those "to-mat-o" or "to-mot-o" things I guess! hehehehehe
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actually I think your technically more correct it is 6 cells , my bad ! Sorry !
Bob......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2009, 03:36:03 am » |
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I suppose one way would be to get an old car battery and remove the plates. Then build up the unit with say, three plates (+-+) in each of the old cell spaces. You would have to be careful to get the external interconnections correct, but you would be sure that each cell was isolated from the next. Any takers ? Manta who hasn't been in his shed and done anything useful for two week 'cause it's too damn cold. Manta old battery casings work well if you can fashion a good sealing lid for it.As far as the 3 plate configured +-+ I feel would run way hot,high on the amps and produce more steam than hydroxy.Remember we're kinda bound by a per plate voltage in regards to efficiency which usually is between 2 and 2.5 volts.using a 14 volt system say on a vehicle would be almost 5 volts per plate and isn't efficient electrolysis. |
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Manta
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« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2009, 01:05:17 pm » |
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hg2,
Not sure I follow you. Six cell connected in series would give you 14/6 = 2.33 volt per cell.
Here is how I would connect the cells. I've shown the pos plates connected at the bottom for clarity.
Manta
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Good questions have a sting in the tail.
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hg2
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« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2009, 01:13:00 pm » |
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hg2,
Not sure I follow you. Six cell connected in series would give you 14/6 = 2.33 volt per cell.
Here is how I would connect the cells. I've shown the pos plates connected at the bottom for clarity.
Manta
Ok I see what you mean now,sorry I misunderstood the +-+ thinking that was the actual configuration using only 3 plates. |
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