Camry from ????

[hydrotinkerer]

I give a little background. I have a 95 Toyota camry obd1 2.2Ltr. automatic. 30mpg base. My wife and I drive 130+ miles a day for work. I put gas in this car every 2 days. I drive the same roads and speed all of the time.

I have been fighting this thing for three months trying to get mpg's out of it. I have tried all kinds of generators. I have finally settled on using dry cells. The cell in the car is the 10.5x7.5" cell. My fuel mpg's with no electronic mods. went down 7mpg with this cell. I figured I must be on to something. About 1 month in I ordered an Efie from eagle. While waiting on it I ordered one from fuel-saver. They both came on the same day.
I hooked one up and adjusted it to 100mv turned on my gen and off we go. My mpg's went on a roller coaster, 30,25,34,27,32,24,30 you get the idea. I changed Efie's(thinking something wrong with it)adjusted to same mv and off we went. Same problem so I checked for leaks, voltage to gen., amp draw, etc. Could not figure out why the mpg's were jumping around so much. I started changing the mv setting and made things worse.

I finally decided I'm going to play around with it. The first thing I did was unhook the Efie and bam mpg down 7 to 23mpg. It stayed that way for 2 tanks. The next thing was to change the gas hose location and BAM the mpg's went up to 35(17% increase). I'll be seeing if it holds that this week.

I took my 1/4" hose and adapted it down to a 1/16" hose and hooked it to throttle plate vacuum. Throttle plate vacuum is not the same as manifold vacuum. Manifold vac is highest at Idle and drops off as the throttle is opened. Throttle plate vac has no vacuum at idle and rises as the throttle is opened. I would have never considered it if I hadn't had so many problems. The last bubbler has white vinegar in it. I hope it offsets the Naoh in the gas. I'll check that later with litmus paper.

[hg2]

  Hydrotinkerer after switching to the throttle vacuum did you have any problems with the increased vacuum drawing e-lyte from the reservoir tank at all?

[hydrotinkerer]

I lowered the level about an inch just to make sure that didn't happen. I did put a empty bottle assembled like a bubbler to keep track of the electrolite level.

[Bob]

Well, here is a thought, LTCFisher said he put his injection point right on the air flow sensor and there was no need to change the O2 sensor or anything else... which is a great CONVIENIENCE INDEED.... I think we are actually introduceing an IMBALANCE into the system by feeding the Hydroxy gas into the system at the manifold ... maybe not at the vacume port
but certainly when I drilled a hole in the plastic snorkel going to the air sensor and stuffed a hose in it !<grin>
... its very Possable that LTCFisher found a way to get the fuel injected engine to work properly with the Hydroxy gas ! ... I have not tried moveing my gas injection point...YET.
but the more I think about it the more it makes sense to me !
...he says he didn't have to do a thing to the O2 sensor !  and that is surprising !
... but that is what we're AFTER !  and it may well be the injection point of the Hydroxy gas... and let the Auto's computer Know about the Hydroxy gas, and deal with it like any other thing it does... it makes allot of sense to me !
...
   See I told ya that Boy was Smart !... even if he has a funny name ! <grin><poke,poke>
...
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

I have my o2 enhancers unhooked right now. I'll run that for a few days and see what happens. Hopefully I won't get a cel.

[hydrotinkerer]

So far 1 tank was 35mpg and the next was 32. The second tank I ran the dog out of it. I still have all my electronics like factory. I put the 25 plate cell in today. I want to see what it does.

[Bob]

with the addition of the "Matt Valve" My gas milage made a big jump for the better
I was getting right around 30 to 32mpg and I got 38mpg from this last tank and the Hydroxy generator was OFF half of the time !!!!!!!
....
so you know thats gott'a be realy good gas milage !
...
I'm realy wondering about LTCFishers injection point and method... it makes sense to have the computer working with you instead of against ya !
...
I might patch the hole in the snorkel and re plumb the thing to the top of the air cleaner right at the sensor... see what that does !
....



Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

Just filled up yesterday and got 26mpg. I'll refill tonight and see what it does. Might be the ecm catching on and readjusting fuel trim. I'll know more after another refill. If the mpg's are still down I'll rehook my Efie and try to get mpg back.

[Bob]

sounds likr that cars computer is fighting ya  Hydrotinkerer !
...
something is amiss somewhere !
...
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

Nothing a little hydroxy gas and a light wouldn't take care of. HAHA  Not really right now I need that thing. I'll figure it out yet.

[Tink]

Hydrotinker,
This is interesting! I think your '95 toy has the same ECM my '89 Toy truck has or very much the same. I believe the change to the 2 generation ECM was in '96 with Toyota. I'll be watching closely your progress cause it sounds like you are having the same problems I am. Is your Camery a Calif car with all the extra emission stuff?
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

Its federal emission but its probably the same as your truck because in later year models they started adding all the emission stuff. I just filled up again tonight and it only got 27mpg. I'll hook my Efie up tomarrow and check my cell to make sure nothing happened to it.

[Bob]

Hydrotinkerer:
  what exactly have you done to the O2 sensors ? on your Camry ?
and what is this EFEI thingie your talking about  is that supposed to fool the O2 sensor or change its signal to the computer ? or is that for the Mass air flow sensor ?
....
I understood that all I needed to do was change the O2 sensor to be out of the exhost flow
and my truck would reap the benifits of the hydroxy gas....well, its not quite that simple
but its not too far from the truth... I've only changed one other thing and that is I added a "Matt Valve" that bypasses the Mass airflow sensor. and seams to realy lean the engine out well... that and a thin pipe over the O2 sensor is all I have done and I'm getting better milage now than I ever thought my truck would get a year ago !
its gone from about 22mpg to a constant 38mpg but my hydroxy LPM is down again or it would be up above 40mpg I am quite sure on that !
...
I am thinking that your Doo-hicky isn't helping much at all  so maybe its time to try the mechanical approach.... extend or cover the O2 sensors then add a "Matt Valve" and see what ya get....
I think the Matt Valve is the biggest contribution to my milage yet... thats just a garden hose from the top of the air box (between the air filter and the Mass air sensor) to the other side of the mass air flow sensor... just a by-pass hose with a valve on it to adjust how much air goes through it...
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

The Efie is an electronic o2 voltage adjuster. o2 voltage when viewed on an oscilloscope is a constantly changing voltage. Most narrow band o2 sensors range in voltage of .00-1.00v. What the Efie does is piggyback an adjustable voltage that you choose. Like mine is set at .150mv. With the 150mv adjusted on the Efie no matter where the o2 voltage goes it always adds the 150mv voltage. With the 150mv added the ecm thinks the exhaust is richer than it actually is. You can hook one up without any sort of gas enhancement but it will burn up an engine and you will only gain 1-2mpg. I already tried it and I only ran it for a couple of days just to see what kind of difference it would make on its own.

[randy]

Hey Bob; that Matt valve works on a bunch of stuff hahahahaha

[Bob]

Hydrotinkierer:
I'm wondering if the range of the EFEI doo-hicky is wide enough to make enough of a change in your vehicle... remember they are Generic and "one size fits all"... which I doubt would be true in all cases...that or the Computer in the vehicle doesn't have that kind of control to Off set that much....
Remember when we impose an imballance into the system  the computer strives to correct the imballance to get it back where it should be... however if we push it too far out of ballance the computer cannot bring it back ( hinse the lower gas milage )...
what we should do is try our best to not mess up the balance in the system...injection point of the hydroxy gas is a major potential screwup... (at least thats how I view it)
if we inject the Hydroxy gas into the engine where it is unknoticed then its easier to correct where the computer then errors as it identifies the higher oxygen level as being too lean... but if it is known by the system, it may be that the system will be in a much better Balanced state ...and not error near as much as in the previous method.
...
I am still thinking that injecting the Hydroxy gas between the air sensor and the air filter is the smartest move  as it will not create more of an imbalance  as it goes into the engine.... only comeing out... and cutting off half of the problem is a good thing RIGHT ?
...
with the engine getting the proper amount of VOLUME of air (with hydroxy gas in it, that it doesn't know about) it runs just as it did before ... only when it leaves the engine in the exhost is it noticed as a Higher oxygen content.... but sense the amount of volume is NOW accounted for  its only a little bit higher than normal....
... where if you inject it after the air sensor the entire volume of it is sensed as being
not right...weather its oxygen or not... thats why I think LTCFisher Has it right !
...then...if the O2 sensor is STILL detecting a elevated O2 level its much less than it would have been and your EFEI should be able to handle that amount...
...
understand what I'm saying ?
..
Bob.....

[Bob]

Randy: Yah it does.. but I am wondering if its going to help or hinder with the placement of the Hydroxy gas at the airfilter or not.... the Bypass valve may not even be needed then.
...at least not till you get to larger amounts of Hydroxy gas and you need to cut down on the gasoline going into the engine or no MPG is gained... when you get to that stage then Certainly the Matt Valve will alow you to adjust the leanness of the entire range of the engine...
but I suppose making the entire engine run leaner is what we are all after in the first place...so long as we don't melt a piston ! HAHAHAHAHHAA
...
I ran my Matt valve realy lean the other day to the ranch and back...so lean that it was idleing a bit rough... it didn't over heat ... and once off Idle it seamed to run fine
... but being a Coward I closed the valve a bit moe this morning so as not to "PUSH MY LUCK"... I dunno what kind of Milage I got but think it was fairly good... but then it has been very good as of late ...even with the cells all crudded up... I am quite supprized!
...I have the Hydroxy cell out and on the bench and I want to get a new base line MPG
to see what my engine changes have done to the milage.... from the 22 to 24mpg I was getting... if it is as I suspect I bet i'm almost getting 40mpg without the hydroxy gas at all....that means I should get 80mpg when I get the cell working the way its supposed to !
HAHAHAHHAHA
....
Bob..........

[hydrotinkerer]

Well I don't have to hook my Efie up. I figured out when I got to work and put my amp gauge on my cell it was only pulling 5amps when I added more Koh to the reservoir the amps nose dived to 3amps and won't come up. Then the stupid meter went dead and soon as it charges I'll finish testing and get the amps up and my mpg's will come back up. I hope it's that easy.

[hydrotinkerer]

Now I'm really confused. By the time my meter charged up my cell was pulling 9amps and producing good amount of gas. After my hour drive to work in the morning I'll retest and see what my cell is doing.

[randy]

hydrotinkererer hehe what kind of meter are you charging? hey Bob just a small brain fart, try introducing the gas at the Matt valve hose.

[Bob]

Randy....NO,No.... thats just what I don't want to do .... because the "Matt Valve" Bypasses the sensor.... I want the Hydroxy gas to go through the sensor... that way the Volume of Gas is accounted for... I can turn the valve OFF on the Matt valve and then see if the computer
will find the Hydroxy gas more Palatable... I think it will and it should show up as a small increase in MPG.... but first I have to get the cell back together!
...
BOb.,....

[randy]

hey BOb ; why not bOB? hahahahaha

[Bob]

Kuz dat ain't proper ! ! bOB just ain't Right! BOB is ok but sort'a Like standing there with Your Chest all puffed out saying LOOK AT ME , so I don't use that much... but BOb is only 2/3 that so its not near as self centered ya see.... and just Bob is proper so nothing special about it at all...  I have to keep you guys guessing all the time ya know or you'll fall asleep!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH
Bob........

[randy]

My wife said I should throw two Os in there but I didn't.

[hydrotinkerer]

My meter is charged and this morning it was pulling 9amps.  I'll adjust the amps up and get some production going.  I'll put gas in it today and see what the mpgs are now.

Randy my meter is a Vantage.

[Bob]

Randy thank you for Refraining.... point taken !<grin>
...
Hydrotinkierer...
sounds like a electritions type of meter one of those clamp on thingies that will read just about anything...
should be interesting to see your results ... keep us informed please!

Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

My mpgs are coming back up(last tank 28mpg)now that my cell is producing good again. I didn't hook my Efie up and I would rather not. I'll up the amps on my cell and see what happens.

I really like my meter/scope but if it wasn't needed for work I would not have it. It cost to much to buy and keep up. I do like inductive amp meter feature.

[Bob]

weird...what do you mean "COMEING BACK UP" it should be there already ! HAHAHAHA
...and only 28mpg still ain't right ! should be 38 to 48 mpg
 How many LPM's you got again
something is hay wire here !!!!!
 thats just not right!
...
Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

Bob, The title of the thread "camry from ?". The mpgs should already be up but? The very most I have ever gotten is 35mpg. Gas is going in it in the morning, I'll know more then.

[Bob]

YAH I KNOW ! <GRIN>
should be "Forum" but I'll not subtract for spelling ! HAHAHAHHA
...
seams to me if your getting 2LPM your 30mpg should have gone up to 35 or 38mpg at the least.
...
lets go through this one step at a time....
...
Do you have an amp meter on the Hydroxy cell ?
...
How many LPM are you getting and can you conferm it ?
...
What have you done to the O2 sensors ?
...
what have you done to the Mass air flow sensor ?
...
and finally what is your Base MPG before the addition of the Hydroxy generator.
...

this will help strighten it all out I am sure !
... Don't be shy.. be truthfull we're here to help..
if you don't know the output say so, or guess, but say your guessing!
if you havn't done anything else to the car say so... theres no shame in that !<GRIN>
...
this is one car that should get 40mpg easily its got a small engine and is a fairly light car and gets good gas milage to begin with !
...
..
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

After all the ribbing about spelling and you got me. Anyway one step at a time.
1. Cell is at 9amps right now.
2. Can't tell lpm since amps nose dived the other day. I'll remeasure it.
3. o2 sensors are factory. Disconnected all electronics.
4. Don't have a maf.
5. Base mpg is 30. 

That was tuff. Glad its over. It was doing good until the amps dived on my cell, then? Until I measure the output its all up in the air.

[randy]

yeah!! what Bob said, Is your check engine light on? Is the bulb burnt out? , found that on a cilica a few years back, that check engine light should come on when you turn the key on, and go out after you start the engine.

[hydrotinkerer]

Nope no ck eng. light and it still works.

[Bob]

OK Add more KOH or what ever you are useing and get the amps to 15amps COLD
...then check the LPM... run the car and get the cell all warmed up and check the LPM
when the cell is all warmed up to its max temp...
...
you can pass on the first test but we definately need to know that its putting out when its warm and at what amps ...
...
NOW....What kind of O2 sensors do you have on that thing? I suspect they are the "Flange type" like on my truck... look on the exhost pipe from just behind the catalitic converter
all the way to the engine... as there might be 2 sensors on there.
see if you can pull the o2 sensor out of the pipe behind the Cat converter and let it dangle...and find a piece of thin tubing to slide over the sensor that goes into the pipe.
this tubing has to be thin or it will not go into the hole the sensor fits into ...
(if need be you can drill out the hole)
the tubing needs to be about 1.25" long and slide it over the sensor so it won't "Sense anything"... My tube was a tight fit and I just pushed it on with a doubled up rag... and its there to stay... then put the sensor back in.
if there is another o2 sensor  do the same thing for it... cover them both so they cannot sense anything... only the tempiture...
don't use aluminum, tin or steel is fine I used a old tent pole as a "Tent pole condom"
for the sensor....<grin>

once that is done then you can test the hydroxy unit by driving it normally with the unit on...don't baby it.. drive it normally or you won't get an accurate MPG reading.
your mileage should go up a long way even with 2LPM...
if Not we may have to add a "Matt Valve" to it to lean the engine out.
...
that is all I did to my truck at first and I went from 22mpg to 24mpg up to 40+MPG
on the very first trip... it continued to get better for about 3 trips then it started dropping and hasn't been the same sense ! HAHAHAHA
(Dirty cell!)
....
don't use a PMW or a EFEI unit when doing this it adds too many variables into the mix!
just run the cell at 20 amps when warm or you will not get the LPM you need ... if you run it at 10 amps you'll only get a slight increase if any ... it takes all 20 amps...
(30 is even better if your system can handle it, and the cell doesn't over heat.)
...
Hydroxy generator and O2 sensor covering.... just do that and then test it by driving it
and let us know the results...
go stright to the gas station and fill up and then test...
....
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

It has got to be something with the cell. I haven't been able to get it over 11amps with 10tsp of Koh.

[Bob]

I put in 24teaspoons of KOH in my Cell once.. but it has a Gallon capasity...
if 10 teaspoons don't do it try more... stop at 50 teaspoons ! if it don't work by then , then I will agree ! HAHAHAHHAHA
... it takes allot of KOH if you have a large capasity of water to deal with !
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

Was running 14amps with 3tsp. I'll take it apart and see. Only has 1 gal cap.

[Bob]

Probly not a bad idea... I've never seen my amp draw go down like that before
its a very good possibility something is amiss !
but I bet ya dollars to donuts you won't find a thing wrong with it...
 simply because it was still registering an amp draw...
so don't be discouraged if you find nothing wrong... just pile on the KOH and don't quit till you get the amperage needed !...
when I ran my 3 cells in series in the same container I had to use almost half my 2lb jar of KOH to get to 20 amps cold.... then when it warmed up I was diluting it for 3 days straight !
just to get the amps back down ! HAHAHAHAHHA
....
...
Bob......

[hydrotinkerer]

This is the problem cell. It started out at 1lpm@14.4amps with 3tsp of Koh. Then all of a sudden 3amps and no output. I added 10tsp more and 11amps is all. I'll take it apart and check it out.

[hydrotinkerer]

Sorry guys hurt my back this week and haven't been able to do anything but lay around being bored. Have a doctor app. tomarrow hopefully I'll be up and around soon. To think people lay around eating bon-bons and watching soaps(GET A LIFE) only five days and going crazy now.

[Bob]

the part of your post that gets me above is where ya say then all of a sudden the amps dropped to 3 amps... AND NO OUTPUT.... that sounds like an internal short to me
... dunno how...maybe you got a metal drill shaveing in there bridgeing the gap or something
but something is haywire... or maybe your doubled up wires are not makeing good contact ?
....
sorry to hear about your back.... been there done that before and it even hurts to breathe!
...but don't try to pull the wool over our eyes...we know you didn't hurt your back at work...  you were chaseing Momm'a again !  probly fell down the stairs too !
HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

....
sorry to hear about your back.... been there done that before and it even hurts to breathe!
...but don't try to pull the wool over our eyes...we know you didn't hurt your back at work...  you were chaseing Momm'a again !  probly fell down the stairs too !
HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

That is the part I guess we will never know for sure because I'm telling the doc. I don't remember a thing. hahahaha

[Manta]

Bob,

Nope,  you got it wrong.  Note he says he doesn't remember a thing.  looks like a case of home brew to me.  That always had  a loss of memory and a falling down effect on me. At least I think it did... Can't remember.

Hydrotinkerer.

Hope your back on your feet soon.  I'm off work while a whole army of viruses fight it out in my system.  Feels like what I imagine Hell is like. Isn't it fun getting old.

Manta

[Bob]

thats a good possability Manta ! infact the symptoms point to it fairly strongly uh !
...
that or sniffin' too much of that hydroxy gas !
..
hehehehhe
...
Bob...

[hydrotinkerer]

Well I put my large cell in the car today. I got it up to 2lpm@23amps we will see what that stupid camry does now.

[Bob]

Fantastic ! keep us informed PLEASE !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

So far with the large cell hooked up I didn't lose any mpgs but haven't gained any either. I'll up my amps and see what the old camry will take. Still at the base of 30mpg.

[hydrotinkerer]

Here is the low down. I ran my large cell for 2-1/2 weeks for approx. 5-7hrs a day. I installed it in the car putting out 2lpm@23amps. I think it has been in the car for 2 weeks and I just checked the output and nothing. It is pulling about 3amps and gas output is  .     
2 different cells did the same thing when installed in the car.

The one in my truck is same design and it has been in the truck for going on 4 months. It is still doing good. There is something wrong with the car. This has become a mission now. Prepare to surrender camry or else!

[Bob]

Hummm what is the Hydroxy cell located by ?
could high tension from the spark plug wires be leaking into the cell ?
its possable that that MIGHT break down the electrolite by going through the neg line to ground
... I can't think of anything else that might do it but maybe a very strong magnetic feild...
but I never hurd of an electrolite's continuity breaking down like that....
once I set mine it had a tennancy to slowly gain in amp draw , not drop !
...what your describeing is as if the electrolite has vanished from the water...
do you have an auto refilling system with just stright water in it ? perhaps you have a leak and it automatically filled it up for ya and dropped your electrolite concentration ?
....
you got something funny going on  there....  have you done something to make the grimlins mad at you ?
or perhaps your wife doesn't want it in her car and she is more Psyisic than you thought !
...
EHHEHEHE
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

The whole assembly is in the trunk of the Camry. I haven't had to add any water or electrolite. I don't know what happened. I think I'll take the one out of the truck and see what it does in the car. Maybe for some reason being mounted in the trunk has something to do with it? Your guess is as good as mine right now.

[Tink]

Maby that Camery is stuck in 'Open Loop' and no matter what you do it will do what it wants by using the default parameters for the air/gas ratio. I think that is what my problem is or at least part of it. Are you getting an error code? Can you check the error codes from within the EFI system like on my '89 2.4R-E truck. I keep getting an error code 27 that tells me the sub 02 sensor thinks the CAT is bad or the temp. is not correct but I checked that with the builtin diagnostic and also replaced both 02 sensors. Is your check engine lite always on? I may just have a bad CAT. No $ right now to replace it.
Tink

[Bob]

Hydrotinkier:
 in the trunk eh !  ok what size of wire do you have going to the cell back there then ?
maybe the amps dropped because of the voltage drop from the long wires to the battery ?
...
the amp guage will indicate the amount of electrons flowing through it, nothing else
right now you have very little flow at all , so that accounts for the no/low LPM
but it could be a fault with the cell itself, but I seriously doubt it...
sounds like you hook it up, everything looks fine and a week or so later you find its not putting out
and that can be from the electrolite loosing its conductivity (Very doubtfull, if not impossable)
the power going to the cell is less than it was by a long shot... quite likely because of the long distance and heavy amp draw on the connecting joints  lead to corrosion real fast...
perhaps your Relay that switches the cell in and out of line is intermitant  at times which is possable
but not very likely...
...
more than anything I suspect the connections at the battery...
many times I have ran into a car that doesn't want to start and the battery seams dead, barely turns over, lights are dim etc,etc, put the charger on the battery and it hardly takes any charge at all...
that indicates that the clamps on the battery cables are dirty and not making good contact. clean them up and everything works great...
 High amp draw causes that to show up most of the times !
...
I suspect you attached the cables to the cell to the exhisting battery clamps, like I did they may well be very dirty or not able to handle the load...I have seen some very chincy battery clamps in my time !
the ones on my toyota are pressed sheet metal of all things and they corrode very easily even with the anti crosion pads under them and anti crosion goo on the posts ! (purple/red stuff!)
if the battery cables are no doubt making real good contact ( like you can weld with them in the trunk !<GRIN>) then thats probably not the case.
...
but be sure about it... its very hard to tell if your getting 20 amps  when any touch to ground sends a shower of sparks ...5 amps will do that too ! see the problem ? amp meter to ground would tell you if you have a big enough amp meter... most of us don't... only 10 amps, and that will fry a small VTOM meter...
..
if the power isn't suspect , and your sure its in great shape that leaves the cell or the electrolite itself....
...if its drawing 3 amps add a teaspoon more of KOH and see what it does ...whatching the amp meter
if it starts comeing up then you know its the electrolite
if there is no change at all then I suspect the cell ...some how  like an almost OPEN curcuit in the cell itself!
...
its definaely a puzzel !
goodluck on finding it !
... please keep us informed!
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

Ok just call me stupid. I figured it out. All along I assumed there was something wrong with my cells...NO. I took one off the car and brought it in the shop hooked it up and it worked like a champ. Duh feel stupid now. Went out to the car with trusty meter in tow did a voltage drop from the battery to the cell in trunk. Bam dropped 2 volts and untold amps. Got to go rewire and check relay.

Thanks for all the ideas guys.

[Bob]

Kool ! sounds like ya found it to me !
running that far wit so many amps I think I'ed use #4 or #6 guage wire...
2 of them , one for the pos. one for the neg.
...
Now Try it again with it WORKING ! hehehehehe
( wish I could say I havn't done something like that....but I can't ! )<GRIN>
...
Bob......

[hydrotinkerer]

Now I'm ready to start testing this camry from ? I got it all rewired and now it doesn't drop any voltage from the battery to the cell. I put the little 25 plate cell in and filled upthe tank and we will see how it goes now.

[Bob]

COOL !
I hope you have a Vent in the trunk... perhaps a muffin fan to suck out the Stray Hydroxy gas that seeps out the cracks   I have found useing dish-soap/water in a spray bottle works great...for detecting leaks... and I usually find plenty of them !
...
putting the hydroxy generator in the trunk is just about like having it on the back seat
because there is nothing but the back of the back seat between the trunk and the pasenger compartment... if it popped a line back there it could gas you !... YOU NEED A BIG VENT !
take a hammer and a chissel to the floor and hack a hole and put a floor vent cover over it !
that should help Some !
...
My 2 coppers!
Bob........

[Bob]

Hydrotinkier:
the test to weather you will drop voltage and amprage is not with the vtom on it.
the true test is when the cell is on and working hard when your wires are getting warm or heating up... ( hopefully nether is the case!<GRIN>)
if you turn on the cell and have it running for a few minutes and then check the Hot side with the VTOM it should give you a good indication of weather or not there is a voltage drop
with the car running you should get 13.5 to 14.5vdc  at least that much... any voltage drop
will mean a large reduction in the amprage the cell will recieve ...
after all we could get along without 14vdc most of the time, but we need those AMPS !
and if you drop 1vdc you probly drop 3 or 4 amps at the very least... something like that.
think of the voltage as an Indicator of the amperage  and if you are getting everything out the trunk that your getting under the hood, chances are good that you will have the Amperage as well...but its ONLY an indicator in this case, the only way to truly tell is have an amp guage on the cell ! ...
...thats what I think anyway!
....
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

I have made sure all the vents in the trunk are working. I figured testing for a voltage drop was a little easier because it shows up with less load. Even with the gen. off I had a voltage drop, It went from 13.6 at the battery to 12.1 in the trunk with no load. I doubled all my wires from front to back and took care of my relay.

Now all I lack is the next tank of gas to check my mpg.

[Bob]

HAHAHA I didn't know there WERE vents in the trunk !
My toyota Cilica has a vent in the bottom but thats cuz I took the rubber plug out to wash out the dirt! HAHAHAHA...
if there's vents in that trunk on the Cilica they would have to be in the fender well somewhere and that is purdy much sealed off with apolsteried pannels.... so not like there would be a WIND in there to get rid of the Hydroxy gas should it pop off the generator
but I trust you know what your doing ! <GRIN> 
I am planning on putting a Hydroxy unit in the Cilica eventually... but I have not worked out the details...first I gott'a get it by the wife ...thats HER Car ! HAHAHHAHAH
....
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

Those vents are inside the panels. That is how you have the a/c and heater controls set on outside air it is vented out the trunk. Other wise the pressure build up would be intolerable. Like my Dodge truck vents are in the quad doors.

[Bob]

Well how about that ! learn somethng new every day I guess ! HAHAHA
...
I know that if I ever get the VW Van running I will more than likely put the generators in the engine compartment , there is a good amount of room back there but if there is not enough I will have to put it in a air tight box that is vented to he outside in the pasenger compartment...
I have a perfect box for that too it is one that used to house a Homart steam cleaner... its about 2'x4'
and is a hefty steel box... right now I have it on the gyro trailer and I store all my tow chains in it .
hehehehe
...
Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

I know one thing this reformulated gas for winter is about to drive me crazy!  

[hydrotinkerer]

All you guys with Toyota's have any of you built or bought a map enhancer(adjuster)?

[Bob]

I know LTCFISHER has... and posted very nice pics of one that is easy to make on the other forum
... I wonder if we can get him to do that again for us here ?
<GRIN>
I saved the pics but I don't want to re-post them without Fishers approval... so its up to him
...its a very simple, 1 pot 1 resistor and 3 wires to hookup... how to hook it up is an unknown to me though!....
 OOOOoooh LTCFISHER !  can you post those pics again in the electronic do-a-mahitchie board ...
or tell me if its OK and I'll do it for ya ! <GRIN>
... thanks !
Bob.........

 

[scratch1676]

Bob, you keep getting Lt Fisher and me mixed up,well not lately but you use too.  you can post any pic of mine you have. 

[Bob]

HAHAHA was that you that did that for us scratch ? Oh brother I am confuzelated ! SORRY!
...
Ok I'll post them in a few seconds on the automotive computer stuff board.
... I do remember you said it took a 50kOhm pot ! HAHAHAH
...
Bob.........

[Tink]

Scratch,
Do you think that will work with my '89 Toyota 22R-E? This truck has the 1st generation computer. I think Toyota changed to the 2nd generation ECU in '95.
thanks,
Tink

[Bob]

OK Sorry Scratch it was you ! ( I found my notes too!) and Cowboy said it was a 50kohm pot.
...
Anyway I posted the pics and info  in the "Automotive computer and sensor modification" section... that way its easy to find !
...
I'm waiting for your Answer from Scratch Tink, because My truck is a 1992 so it is about the same as yours.... R-22 fuel injected.
so if it works on yours it will work on mine!
... how do you tell the wires appart on the sensor ? any hints other than looking at the trucks wiring schematic ?
...
anyway...
Hope that helps ... and thank you Scratch !
...
Bob.........

[scratch1676]

yep yep should be the same.  I cant remember and I will try and find the site.  When I installed the device, I had found a website that had all the information on the location and what wire to splice into under the hood so you can hook up the box.  My truck is a 1994.

[hydrotinkerer]

My camry is a 95 OBDI and it will work on it so I can't see why it wouldn't work on those older trucks. That is as long as they have a map to hook it to.

[Bob]

Yah Scratch ! if you can find that sight again and let us know where it is I'ed sure appreciate it... cuz I'm kind'a Fuzzy on how to hook it up...and hooking extra wires DIRECTLY to the cars computer scares the heck out of me... that computer costs more than the truck is worth !
...
In all honesty I have no idea weather my truck is a OBD I or OBD II or even a Toyota specific thing...
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

96 and later are all OBDII and that covers all makes and models.

[scratch1676]

i am looking for that page still will post when i find it.

[Tink]

Guys,
We were without sun for a few days do I was conserving my resourses. If I remember correctly the blue wire is the signal wire and the 2 black ones are the heater wires (don't matter which one) the white one is the ground. My connector was all corroded so I used the standard 4 wire tailer hitch connectors as they are real weather proof. Are we talking about 02 Sensors? Bob if you mean the MAF sensor I don't know. The 2 volume Toyota repaire manual I have is specifically for the '89 and yours may be slightly different.

I just built the Randy Original cell and what a beast! It seams to produce like crazy on only 1/8 tesp/gal KOH to distilled water. It started up at 20amps and quickly rose to 25 then 30 and over. After about 35 minutes it was at 180 degrees though so I'll have to do something about that. I didn't get a good LPM test. I was taking a long piece of tubing about 4 feet and connecting it directly to the output on the cell into a bucket on the ground (cell is in my truck). It was slow at first and then half way through it started going real fast. Probably got 1/2 leter in 20secs. I think the tube was too long and maby too far down below the cell and it had to build up pressure to force it out since it is a gas and wants to go up not down. Does any of this sound correct? It sure looks promising to me. Got too cold and had to quite or freeze. I gave it up and went inside so I could be next to my cozy wood stove.

Ok, where do I get that MAF thing? and how much $?
Tink

[scratch1676]

I still havent found that page but I havent gave up yet.

[Bob]

Tink:
 the secret of the heat in a Randy cell is the volume of electrolyte in the container AND the AMPS.... if you limit the amps to say 20 amps you should be ok any more and the cell will get mighty hot !( as you discovered!)
the next thing is putting 2 of the randy cells in series but the results from doing this is
somewhat weird... if you can up the amps to say 30 to 40 amps you'll come out ahead by using 2 cells in series, if you don't then perhaps you'll be better off with a single cell and a cooling system....
I had 3 Randy cells in series in the same container and I expected it to give me 6LPM but I only got 2LPM at the most... a real let down.... but it was not the cells it was the hookup!
I simply did not have enough power to run all 3 at once.... you probably do !
the 3 in series needs at least 40 to 60 amps to get the decent output of 5~6LPM
...
I certainly am not an expert on the toyota Sensors and the things I have done to my truck have indeed worked for me ... but I dunno if its going to work for you or not.
I think the "MATT Valve" is the single most valuable thing I have done for my truck to date
... HOWEVER the adjustment is very very touchy... I was getting close to 40mpg without the
Hydroxy cell attached... I moved the valve just a tiny bit to make it not quite so lean
and my milage went down to 27mpg again ! HAHHAHAHAHA that is a hair line more closed that the valve used to be! ...
 I believe the Matt Valve will take care of the "Leaning out of the gasoline" ishue in the R-22 engine when useing the Hydroxy generator... so a MASS AIR FLOW adjuster is not needed
 just the "Matt Valve"...
 As far as the O2 Sensors go I only have one after the Catalitic converter and I put the steel tube over it and have not messed with it sense ...to be honnest I dunno if it helps or hinders!  no lights have been triggered so I guess its OK ...I realy dunno !
HAHAHAHAHA
...
so technically I have a MAF on my truck and a O2 sensor "tricker"...  weather they work or not is the $64 question !<GRIN>  I figure if I get better gas milage than I used to, they must work ! HAHAHAHHA and I have better gas milage now than I had to begin with so they must work ! HAHAHA!
...
Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

I have the o2 enhancer(Efie) and I'm building the map adjuster. The Efie was good for a 1 maybe 2mpg gain on its own. I think with the imports a map adjuster and o2 enhancer is the way to go. I'll know as soon as I get it built and hooked up.

[Tink]

Hydrotinker,
What is your truck?
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

Tink, I have a Dodge diesel truck and a Toyota Camry.

[Tink]

Hydrotinker,
Does the EFIE work on the Camry? And what year is the Camry? Thanks,
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

I have a 95 camry. The efie works on the camry but I could only ever get about a 5-6mpg gain at best. I want to try the efie and map adjuster in tandem. I hope that would get me a 10+mpg gain.

[Bob]

Hydrotinkierer:
 Is that with a Hydroxy generator on the car too or without one ?
and what is your MGP at the moment the way it sets ?
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

My camry's base mpg is 30. With my cell running and no electronics it drops to 24. With the cell running and my o2 sensor adjuster(efie) it gets 34-35.

I hope with the map adjuster added I can get 40-45. I would be happy with that (atleast for a little while)

[Bob]

I think it will...
because the MAP adjuster is the one that will "Lean out the gasoline"... the other one is just to get the computer to quit messing it up !
.... you should get 45mpg if you have 2 to 3LPM.... I think anyway !
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Hydrotinker,
I may have missed it in a previous post, would you tell us where you got the EFIE? I've talked to EFIE people and none of them wil say their product will work with my truck.
Thanks,
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

Tink, I have two different ones. One I got from Eagle research and the other I got from Fuel-savers. I have had both hooked up and I didn't see any difference. They both cost the same and the Eagle took 7 weeks to get. The Fuel-saver took 3 days. The fuel-saver has better support so in my opinion I would go with Fuel-saver.

If you ask on their forum they will tell you if anything they have is compatible with your vehicle. Here is a link:
 
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/index.php?main_page=products_all&zenid=4dc175cf06f718a2e64d941f1798db5a

[LTCFISHER]

I recently checked in to the brains of some of the on board computer after a friend asked me a few question on his, the best info. I found was from MIT they tested 4 different computers (one was his), and added fuel saving devices, the results were great for TWO start ups and then the computer changed it's setting to the original timing and fuel adjustments so basically the newer car computers will not allow for changes made to enhance fuel economy. The longest unit to hold the changes only lasted 1 tank of gas.

Just food for thought.

Glad my truck doesn't have a computer like that.

[Bob]

Ack ! As I suspected then !
that is very bad news INDEED... because if you do get it working and running good in a few days or a week the computer will eventually counter the changes no matter how far you change them.......
...
  I suspected this a long time ago when I read of a fellas fight, of getting close to 40mpg and a week later was back to 15mpg... he then re set the computer ( removed the battery for about an hour) and tried it again... and got 40mpg and again a week later was back to 15mpg
...this was on a chevy truck if I remember right...
anyway,  modifying the sensors doesn't seam to have a lasting effect using a adjustor to change the signal, what what this fella was doing... so he desided to simply re adjust it every 3 days.... that worked for about 2 weeks then he was at the end of his adjustment
and has to reset the computer again and start from the beginning again.
...HOWEVER, not all computers do this, that much is certain. but MOST DO !
I am fairly certain the one in my Toyota Pickup does(92 R-22) as I have yet to obtain good gas milage and keep it there for more than a tank full of gas or two.
 I suspect that allot of starting and turning off the engine will get the computer to counter act the changes faster... as it seams to step the adjustments up one step at a time upon startup... ( I can't be sure of this but it is my guess, thats why it takes so long in some cases)
 I don't do allot of start and stop driveing , I drive for 45 to 50miles one way and usually start and stop about 3 or 4 times is all.
when town running that is another story, 20 to 30 start and stops are not uncommon !
....
this is why I opted for the "Matt Valve" and the Air sensor adjustment that I did.
and closeing off the O2 sensor  to try and go around the sensors and fool the computer into thinking it doesn't have to adjust it at all.... but I am very suspissious that the modifications have not totally done the trick !
...
I don't know How the computer can make the desigions it does when its only got like 6 sensors in the entire system.... but I have a gutt feeling that iit is getting enough information from the other sensors to make the changes !.... perhaps I slowed it down is all, but it still is effecting the operation and counter acting the Hydroxy gas input.
... I dunno, but I suspect that this is the case....
and to be completely honnest I am baffeled as to what to do about it...
there has to be another sensor in there that is goofing up the works ... but what is it ?
...
Bob.........



 

[hydrotinkerer]

While correct that some ecm's have the ability to readjust their a/f back to stock. Those are very late models. You can get full blown adjusters for about $700-1200. They will map timing, map, fuel coolant ,etc. I have been looking at some for $500 to see if they will do what I want.

[Bob]

I hope your right on that Hydrotinkierer !
as I am hopeing that its just my rotten string of luck with the Hydroxy cells that is my main problem ! .... but with my Hydroxy gas output fluctuating so wildly its really hard to tell
... that is why I decided to go with one big dry cell... although I may very well make it a wet cell if I can scrounge up enough plexy glass ! <GRIN>
the plan is a 6 plate 12"x12" 304 stainless steel with 2B finish on it, because I can at least afford them at $9.00 a plate ! (OUCH!)
each plate will have a corner lopped off, about 1"x1" or what ever looks like enough room to attach wires to <GRIN> and then flip flopped in alternating fashion to get opposite polarity on each plate....
I will Probably go with a dry cell because it looks fairly bullet proof to me and I plan on 1/16" plate separation... but I have yet to find my gasket material that I will use....
I may well use 1/16" plexy-glass strips and use silicone sealant on both sides to seal them up...
However if I had a box for it out of plexy glass It would make extracting the gas much more fool proof... so I am kind'a weighing the pro's and cons on both ideas at the moment.
...
... the next major step will be a big alternator for the truck because as I said I want to pump at least 100amps into that cell... if I can I should be able to get enough to run 100%
hydroxy gas but of course I don't know weather or not that will be enough yet !
...
I already have the #4 cable for the wires to the cell, and a flat 1/4" boat windshield that I might be able to use as a box , or at the very least end plates.
....
I want to mount the cell under the hood on the frame rail next to the engine if I can
but I have a feeling that will be too hot there ! ... Scratches idea of putting them in the back is very appealing to me but I don't want to give up my bed space for that !
so IF i can fit it under the hood I will !
...
so as You can see I won't be using Neutral plates at all... strictly hard wired all the way.... and running that kind of amperage I think I will have to have a circulating system
and maybe even a good radiator... I have a nice heater core I can use but I think its copper and I think it would be ate up by the KOH or Lemmonaid...
if I have to buy a 12vdc pump to keep it cool I will ...
but I think Cooling fins on a resivore tank will do the trick... I hope anyway!
...
we shall see what happens in the near future...
if it takes a $500.00 computer adaptor to get the thing to work all the time I guess I'll have to make one ! HAHAHHAHAHA cuz I can't afford that !
...
Bob........

[Tink]

Hydrotinkerer,
Thanks for the link, I'm awaiting a reply from them now to see what unit I should use. I hope this is the ticket for me. If so then Bob could benifit from it too.
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

I'm also building a map adjuster to go on my camry. I hope to get the parts next week.

Bob you could always put the cell in front of the rear wheels. Their is always alot of wasted space there.

[Bob]

that is a possibility ... but if I remember right under my truck is only about 6" from top of the frame rail/bed to the side pannel bottom... its not very high at all.... long yah !
and probably a foot wide but deep... I don't think its very deep at all...  I could probly lay them on their sides fine in that space... but they need to breathe standing UP !
<GRIN>
...
NOW in front of the front wheel is a good possibility ...
I will check it out...

...
I'll just mount it all in a trailer and tow the SOB behind the truck all the time !
HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA
....
Bob....

[randy]

build ya a winch mount looking thingy and mount it in front, It'd also help with the cooling, grab a can of krylon and make it purdy. my truck's sitting in the bank parking lot DEAD, don't have cell hooked up so it wasn't caused by it, that distributor module gave up, noticed some hairline cracks in it when I installed it, new one will be in tomorrow. 14" of snow here, freezing cold, great time for croaking truck.

[charley]

Man Randy.  Hope the new year treats ya better.  We're about there.

Charley

[Tink]

Talk about taking up space I've been toying (pun!) with the idea of mounting 2/75watt solar panels on my camper shell and inside in the bed have 2 L16 batteries (400ah each) with a Trace C40 charge controler and wires and the hho cells all hooked up. I figure the batteries will be charged full most of the time. Since we get so much sun here this would be a great 'to and back from' work truck arrangement. There would be no drain on the electrical system of the truck and I should be able to pump at least 100amps in those cells at least on the sunny days (95% of the time). I may have to use a battery boost regulator like the TGE N8XJK. Since I have most of this laying around anyway I won't have to put out $2000 to get this stuff new! What we won't do to save a few dollars on gas.
I'm being sarcastic. But, this would definately work. The panels would be charging the batteries all day and I only drive the truck about 2 hours a day on average anyway.
Tink

[Bob]

Great IDEA Tink !
but I'd add a battery Isolator in the truck to let the engine charge the big batteries in back while it's runnin' myself... I don't have much faith in those solar panels as they put out a very small trickle charge most of the time ...in good sunlight !
... now if ya had a 10amp solar pannel sure... but I think that would cost you more than the truck now days ! HAHAHAHHAHA but you'ed have a better idea than I would, if they'ed stay charged or not...I ain't messed much with solar pannels ...YET.
...
I like Randy's Idea of a winch/bumper bracket on the truck ...perhaps when I have time and material for such a thing... good O'l Krylon is better than chrome anyway ! HAHAHHAA
....
Bob......

[Tink]

To use the truck to charge the batteries would be an easy install even with a switch to shut it off when not needed.
Tink

[Bob]

yah true but have the solar panels on the roof of the camper shell to Help out...
tiz a great idea when your using big batteries, why not lighten the load on the engine !
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

There are so many new technologies out there with solar power but they are so expensive. We really need a total shift in our energy usage to get the prices down on solar and wind so all these other things can take off. Imagine once you get going in a vehicle using the wind to power the batteries! there is no end to what can be done once we get off the oil diet that is destroying our creative brain power. Years ago I read an article about a sail for a boat that was shaped like an airplane (or should I say a bird) wing mounted vertical in the craft and it propelled the darn thing. What ever happened to that? How did we ever get so dependent on oil? I'm being sartacistic again, I know how we got so dependent on oil.
Tink

[Bob]

Tink:
 Jach Kustoe's(sp) boat used that method and it worked fantastically
vertically driven turbines are even being placed on Oil tankers now to help off set the cost of running the diesel engines by powering  electric engines.... they take the wind at 360 degrees, no need to worry about jibbing or turning...  one of these on a car but shorter would definately charge your batteries ! and make a electric car almost useable !
...
vertically driven turbines are far better than the old windmills of the 1800's but you seldom see them, and I'm not talking about the helicopter blades bent into a bow eather
I'm talking about a true turbine... 55gal drums cut in half and off set to form a "S" shape
stacked on top one another and balanced and with good berrings ... something as simple and as crude as the 55 gal drum turbine will out proform a 12ft windmill in all winds !
....
if you take a single 55gal drum and cut it exactly down the center and half it and then place the half cut side at the center or a bit less  the air is scooped in one side and redirected out to force the other side around.... so you not only have a big area off center to catch the wind but it uses that wind to turn the thing too by forceing it out the other side ....
its a fantastic design and so simple its childs play.... but very very effecient!
make a small 1ft modle and you will see what I'm saying as one with a bicycle generator on it is a great cell phone charger ! HAHAHHAHA
....
I love the idea of electric cars but I don't like the limited range at all... a pony motor is a must before I'll drive one ! something to charge the batteries as I go... but perhaps a wind turbin can do that just as well eh ?
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

It's called a Savonious Rotor.  They have a great advantage over the normal bladed turbines in that they only need a very low wind to get them going. Much better torque at low wind speed.  I have seen pictures of them being used in conjunction with prop turbines (vertical shaft) to get the prop up to speed.  A bit like your gyro.

They do make for a handy system on a boat,  but I understand you need a fairly deep keel to allow for the side  pressure against the rotor.

It certainly is a good use of old oil drums.

Manta

[Bob]

that or a tri-maran which has a very wide stance <GRIN>
but depending on the hight of the thing it could be nasty in a strong gail wind heheheheh
....
what ever their called they do work extreamily well I made one one time on a ford falcon front wheel spindle put a 72 tooth sprocket on the hub and bolted the cross member of the turbin to the lug bolts....
I welded a sprocket to a 6vdc generator's pully nut and hooked it up with a honda 90 drive chain.... it never spun.... because I did it in the summer time and there is hardly any wind there on the ranch.... but I took the generator off and left it sit and everyonce in a while I'ed notice it spinning... then one day  a good wind storm came up and I thought OH yah! it will be a good time to re mount the generator on the thing.... I went up to where I had it bailing wired to a stump only to find it laying on the ground in a heap of twisted metal !
HAHAHHAHAHA....must'a been the big crash Mom hurd earlier ! HEHEHEHEHHE
....never messed with it after that ! it was #2 4ft x6ft pieces of alum sheet like flashing
...very thin stuff but enough to see if it would work... it did spin but not very well and I found out later why it didn't work very well.... I only left a foot gap between the 2 pieces and I did not cover the top and bottom so the air would be compressed into the choot
..... as they say ...live and learn !
...I still have the spindle, sprocket and generator.... lost the chain though !
HAHAHHHA that was back when I was 15 years old .... man that was a long time ago !
their was allot of writeing in the news paper about the Write brothers at the time if I remember right....... something about some crazy flying machine, but I didn't pay much attention to it !
HEHEHEHEHEHHE
...
Bob........

[b1jetmech]

I can say after reading through the hardships in "fighting the computer" has got me thinking of converting mine to carburetor. I have a 350 vortec...love the power and acceleration but if I want to run a lot of hydroxy then I would sacrifice the computer controlled induction for a carburetor. Won't be hard to do since it's small block chevy It would be too bad to see that vortec induction system go...

If you are putting out a lot of H2 then a IMPCO propane valave would work instead of a carburator.

Check them out here: http://www.propanecarbs.com/examples.html

[hydrotinkerer]

I finally got my parts for my map adjuster(after a month). I'll put one together in the next couple of days and see how the old camry does then.

[Cowboy]

I can say after reading through the hardships in "fighting the computer" has got me thinking of converting mine to carburetor. I have a 350 vortec...love the power and acceleration but if I want to run a lot of hydroxy then I would sacrifice the computer controlled induction for a carburetor. Won't be hard to do since it's small block chevy It would be too bad to see that vortec induction system go...

About all you'll lose by going to carb in that Vortec is how easy it starts.  All of the cool stuff is in the heads.  But, if you insist on keeping the nice looking intake system, you can get tuning software for it.  Guessing by your description, you're not running throttle body.  That just means that the software costs a little more, but still there. You'd pay about the same for the software as you would for a good carb and intake. 

[Bob]

Although I think it can be done with a Propane carb ( and thank you for the web site! I needed that!)  I caution against planning on buying a propane carb and hooking it to the engine and Hydroxy generator and expecting it to run like normal... !
Many things come into play with a Propane carb, the gas pressure for one as well as the Jetting
with Propane almost as much Air as gasoline is used when burning it in an engine, but with Hydroxy gas Much, much, less air is used... in fact so much less that I doubt you will get a engine to run with a propane carb and Hydroxy gas... it will lean the hydroxy gas out way too far to burn. that means extensive JETTING would have to be done to the carb... and the Jets on those diaphragms are NOT easy to modify.... I still have a propane jet off a diaphragm in my toolbox that I have yet to attack , its a cone shaped thing with a slot in it... the depth and width of the slot is the Idle setting and the CONE itself is the medium and full throttle settings and its only about 1/2" long and 3/8" in od. making it very hard to deal with!
after removing it from the diaphragm  I decided it was easier to make a new one on the lathe than modify the existing one !...
... I went to the Propane carb site and did see a high volume 2 bbl 1600cfm carb however
so 2 of those or even 1 on a smaller V8, might be the answer.
....
You simply cannot block off the outside air and run a propane carb because with the outside air cut off the vacuum diaphragm will not operate at all, there has to be a pressure differential for the diaphragm to operate and move the main jet... this poses a problem for the Hydroxy gas.... hydroxy gas don't need any ,or Much EXTRA air to mix with it...
with a Propane carb you have a bunch... How will you get around that problem ?
...
for Vaporizing Gasoline and expanding it 600 times you might be able to get away with it.... that is what I was trying to do... but for Hydroxy gas I think a simple valve is your best bet.... its inefficient, won't mix very good and down right CRUDE ...but has worked on engines so far... and unfortionately the ONLY method that I have seen that does!
.....
Granted some propane carbs don't have to have, a pressure diferiential to operate and those you could probly use fine... but the ones on that site were all vacume operated,or pressure operated... if you found a propane carb that had a Manual cam or ecentric that moved the main jet that would be the perfect canadate for the job... but I have not seen them for large engines AT ALL!
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good luck !
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Personally I think going to a regular carb fed engine is the way to go... Much easier to deal with I think... but I won't know for certain till I put one on the Old dodge truck! HEHEHE
...
Bob....
 

[hydrotinkerer]

I have had my map adjuster on now for 4 weeks. The first time I adjusted it I turned the vref voltage down to 4.5v. I ran it for 2 weeks and the milage went down 6-7mpg(wrong way huh). The second 2 weeks I adjusted the vref voltage up to 5.5v. I have run it for 2 weeks and the milage came back to base +3. I'm going to adjust it tomarrow up to 6v and see what it does.

[Bob]

Sounds like your testing it correctly to me...thats what I'ed do anyway...
I just have a problem when it comes to these enhansors/adjusters... some how I doubt they will take the fuel LEAN-NESS far enough, to show any real improvement in gasoline mileage.
I just think the computer in the car is smart enough to correct it if its too lean
thats why I think we need to go toward mechanical means of leaning out the engine...
ni-on-to-IMPOSSABLE in a electronic controled engine I understand , but I think its a must to see any real big improvements...
thats why I use the "Matt-Valve" as my Leaning-out adjuster... and it seams to work very well for me !...( I dunno if you can adapt the "Matt-Valve" Idea to your truck or not but where there is a will there is a way guys !)
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even with my Hydroxy generator OFF  I am getting a consistant 30MPG out of my toyota truck now... I started with 22~24MPG as a base line...so getting 30MPG is darn good I think....
adding Hydroxy gas Now will only improve that further !
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Bob........