Another big question

[Manta]

Somethings bothering me.

Kept me awake last night.

Imagine a very simple cell.  Two plates only.  One connected to B + and the other to B -.
We immerse these plates in electrolyte and turn on the power.  Electrons (and/or Ions) flow from the negative plate to the positive plate and current flows.  Before you all reach for your keyboards to refute this,  I'll revert to convention and we'll assume current flows from the + plate to the - plate. Gas is produced by the current flowing through the electrolyte.  OK.

Now, here is what bothers me.

In the series plate configuration (Terro cell), only the two outer plates are connected to the supply.  The rest 'float' (electrically) between the two plates. The question is Why ?  For the life of me I can't envisage the reason for the inner plates to be there .  They appear to me to simply be impeding current flow between the supplying and receiving outer plates. I can see how they can be used to control current flow as they are (to me) efectivly blocking the flow.  They can't supply current by themselves as,  unlike plates in a parallel cell arrangement,  they are not connected to either pole of the battery.

If the gas was being produced from the metal plates themselves,  I could understand it,  but it comes from the electrolyte inbetwen the plates.   And,  as we know,  voltage is in fact dropped by each plate.
So why do we need the series system at all ?

Surely a current controlled parallel multiplate cell is the only way to go.

Manta

(Puts on flame proof jacket and dives down behind wall)

[hg2]

 
  Ok Manta you can shed the jacket and come out from behind the wall(at least for my post anyway I switched off the military mode on my keyboard).I gotta remember that one,I've got a couple of forums I can use that one on  LOL.

  Anyway I think this can be done easily by using what you suggested by lowering the current to say 1.75 to 2.25 v(ideal voltage for efficiency),but It would have to be 2 large plates(I think) to get any kind of useable production.The teros floater plates also produce hydroxy and are needed so that the amps aren't off the scale(per the design).When I first built my larger than plan tero(7-10" x 10" plates)I was bench testing and tried increasing the voltage by stepping up a plate at a time,and quit when I got to the 5th plate and the amps bottomed out my 60 amp ampmeter.The voltage went to 3.5 per plate and the wire terminals got hot even after only a 15 second burst.



  I'm not sure if this helps you but it seemed to maybe relate to what you were trying to understand.





                          Rusty

[Manta]

hg2,
Sort of helps to confirm what I was thinking. But not quite. I see the point of 'floater' plates as current controllers. And,as you mentioned,  two volt per plate seems to be the accepted ideal.  But using the plates to control the current seems wrong somehow.
I feel sure that this business of current density comes into this . If you use only two plates say,  10" * 10" and run 10 Amp through them you have a current dendity (CD) of 100 sq inch at 10 amp = 10 Amp/inch; I think. I assume you only consider  one of each pair. At 60 amp you have (100/60) * 10 =a CD of 60 Amp/inch.

But do you multiply this figure by 5 for the five plates as they are effectivly in series ?
Or maybe you would get the same result if you used only two plates but adjusted the spacing to control the current.  This last bit comes from my belief that the gas comes from the electrolyte and not from the plate surfaces;  it only looks as if it does.

Tests,  more tests.

Manta

p.s.   I take it that you meant lowering the Voltage to 1.25  etc.. 

[candyman55]

As H2 said, gas is produced on the floater plates. The reduction in voltage is relative to the # of plates in the cell. The electrolyte only carry's the current from plate to plate and does not produce any gas at all. If you check the plates, I believe that you wil find that one side of the plate has a positive charge and the opposite side has a negative charge. With the plates creating mini cells, they divide the amperage and voltage evenly between themselves, thus lowering the heat in the cell. (It's magic)

[Manta]

Candyman55,

I agree with that,  but not with the need for them.  They are parasitic and,  whilst controlling the current,  shouldn't be necessary. Maybe someone can try the following (I have enough on at the moment),  set up,say. 5 plates in a parallel configuration,  do the gas flow measurements.  The re-configure them as a series set. measure again and post the results.  Could be interesting.  Don't forget the current measurements.

I don't believe in magic.  Prefer to trust the meters.

Manta

[Bob]

MANTA ! You DING-A-LING !
 Why I oughta'......  hehehehehehe
No seriously Your totally right except you should aferm that electricity flows from Neg to positive
I don't care if it draws flack or Not ! thats just how it works, and the sooner people realise that the faster they'll learn other stuff ! <GRIN>

so You'll get no flack from me ...just teasing !

...
 I often wondered the same thing about the Netural plate idea.... I've never liked the netural plates in a cell... every one I've tried EXCEPT the Smack booster has failed Miserably ! but I think that mainly because the plate meterial... it has to be Stainless Steel in order for netural plate designs to work.... that I know from my own experiments....
but WHY use a Netural plate design in the first place ?
... I think it comes from believeing that any voltage over the minimum on a plate will go into making heat...so people have strived very hard to make a cell that has minimum plate voltage   just to reduce heat....
 According to the guys that made these type of cells the plates are actually charged  and are connected to electricity by the INDUCTION method, so wires are not needed to make them work... thats how the theory goes anyway.....
 and bubbles do form on those plates because the induced voltage is present and they react just as if they were wired directly... with the exception that they are in Series... this could possably be the only case where the Amprage actually stays the same through each plate in the cell. because it is truly in series... and I don't know of anyway  possable to hook up a cell with the plates in series BUT this method....
...
 this method of activateing the plates is somewhat iffy at times however because the distance between
the Neg plate and the Pos Wired plates is not infinant.... it is a short distance usually limited to a few inches...  although Bob Boyce accomplished a good produceing cell that was 101 plates and spanned a large distance, I think it was clusters of 5 plates at a time... but I'm not positive on that
...
never the less the Netural plate system does work... but is it better than Hard wireing each plate to power ?  I seriously doubt it !
 I say that because the distance between the Pos and Neg powered plates is a large distance in a netural plate cell... and even with a super Rich concentration of electrolite ( which these type of cells need) it still is going to have truble getting the electrons to pass that wide of a space...
even if there are netural plates that are charged inbetween those 2 points ( that helps but you still need to add the plate gap to each plate to see the distance the electrical flow must take)
 if you figure 6 plates at 1/16" plate spaceing you have 6/16" or 2/8 or 1/4" space that is the resultant distance the 2 end plates are going to see.... ( now you see why a strong electrolite mix is needed on this type of cell!)... and in most cases the plate gap is 1/8" not 1/16" so it would be 1/2"
with them !
.....
 I think its safe to say Wireing every plate is a MUST for the best efficiency but with that comes Heat
because you are directly plugging the electricity into the electrolite then... thats what you want, but
MORE of your amprage is getting to the electrolite than in the other method.
....
thats how I see it anyway !
...
Bob........

[candyman55]

The series will make less gas in every case. I tried that with my tube generator and spaced the tubes to 3/16 and thought I could strengthen the electrolyte and control it better it won't work. A parallel cell might work by controlling the voltage but I envision it as being quite large  in order  to make a useable amount of gas.

[Bob]

Manta !
a 10"x10" plate will have 100sqr. inches of surface area...
 2 such plates would be 200sqr inches...
putting 10 amps into that 200 sqr inches ...(200/.05=10  ) gives you 0.05amps per sqr inch
a very low amprage per sqr inch...
I have found it takes at least 1 amp per sqr inch to make Hydroxy gas( more is better if corse).... .05 ain't going to do much at all....
...
if you take the numbers you posted and times them by the plate area you'll see its way off <GRIN>
...
you can't have more amps per square in than you are giveing it to begin with  HAHAHAHAHA
....
anyway, a minor goofup...  but I think seriously Hard wired cells work much better by far
many successfull generators have been made by useing only 2 plates... usually those 2 plates are
quite big but that isn't the point, the point is what way is better... and I think the fewer the plates the better off you are, but with only 2 plates you are useing only one side of each plate
so inorder to use both sides you need 4 plates, even still you have 2 of those 4 plates only useing one side of the plate... that is why Mutiple plates work better than just 2 plates...
more of the surface area is being used...
... You are correct in your Belief that the Hydroxy gas is being made in the water.... after all
its the water that makes the Hydroxy gas ...we don't get stainless steel bubbles floating to the top ! right ?   ...they form on the surface of the plates because that is where the magnetic feild is strongest...right on it.... not between the plates but on the plates themselves...
you can see this in action just watching a cell work.
...
my 2 coppers!
Bob........

[candyman55]

Bob, I think that 3,5 or 7 plates will give us the most hydrogen producing plate area.  -+-, +-+-+, +-+-+-+- VS +-, +-+-, +-+-+-

[hg2]

  Manta  I did mean 1.75 -2.25 regarding ideal voltage,at least that's what I've read to have efficient production per the voltage.My teros voltage with 6 cells is 2.23v draws about 40 amps and has an output of almost 4 LPM.

  And you mentioned your belief that the e-lyte produces the hydroxy instead of them forming on the plates themselves.I have to disagree with that because with standard 12vdc generators it is fact that the bubbles form on the plates.The only known method(that I know of)that forces the bubbles to form in the e-lyte is through the use of a resonance drive unit creating harmonics that resonates the plates so that the hydroxy is forced to form between the plates in the e-lyte.


   Next is the cell I presently use that I described regarding amps.I've always been under the impression that the amps per the sq.in. was 1/4 amp per sq.in.As I stated that I use 10" x 10" plates on my tero cell,after deducting the spacer gasket flange of 1/2 " that leaves 9" x 9" plate area exposed to the e-lyte.So with 2 plates at 81 sq.in. the total sq.in. is 162 @ 1/4 amp per sq.in. that's 40 amps which is exactly the amps my cell draws(when I have the correct e-lyte ratio).I run the standard tero 28% by weight to distilled,sothis why I believe 1/4 amp per sq.in.is the correct figure.

[Manta]

hg2,
Your figures are pretty undeniable.  So your probably right.

I'll get back to you.

Manta

[hg2]

hg2,
Your figures are pretty undeniable.  So your probably right.

I'll get back to you.

Manta

  Manta I only said that I just believed I was right not that I was right.I've tried using 8 plates with same e-lyte ratio with lower voltage and the amps dropped to 12 and the output at just over 1 LPM.The reason I went with 6 cells and more production was because I'm feeding a 5.7 Hemi motor and IMO am already falling short on LPM with 4. I recently changed out my 136 amp alternator and traded up to a 160 amp which can easily handle the 40 amps I'm drawing now.Over the last year that I've has this cell installed on my truck I've tried every combination of e-lyte ratios,voltages,number of cells and amperage I could think of,it's possible I missed some but if I did it wasn't many.

[Bob]

Hg2:
 Hay ! if you have a 160amp altenator in that truck whats keeping you from drawing 80 amps from that cell ? or at least more than your doing... 40 amps is on the LOW side of the production curve  for plate area....
Seriously I believe you can Push allot more without hurting a thing !
I said 1 amp per sqr inch before but I ment 1 amp per plate on small sized cells like the Randy cell.... with the Randy cell the cell realy doesn't start produceing very good untill you get over 11 amps...and the cell has 11 plates....
but that is at the BOTTOM of the curve good production from that sell is achieved at 25 to 30 amps warm.... and it realy puts out the LPM (2.5 to 2.75 or more)
....
given that the Randy cell has 55 sqr in Approx. 55/25amps is 2 amps per sqr inch
I am sure that is why the Little cell produces so much... (plus its close spaceing too)
if you ran your cell at 2Amps per sqr inch your output would probly tripple
162 sqr in x 2 is 324 amps though... which is more than you can give it at the present time
......BUT you can give it 60, 70 or 80 amps and still handle it well with the larger altenator.
that small of a change will only raise the heat a little (I think...)
but may well double your output... because like I said, your on the bottom edge of the curve...even a little more will be allot of gain per amp.
set it up for 80 amps and run it like that in the day time with out headlights if you are worried about taxing the altenator too much...
 at the present time I run my truck at 15 amps cold 30amps hot on the standard 65 amp altenator.... BUT I turn the hydroxy generator off if I have to turn on the head lights
....( in all truthfullness I probly don't have to do that... but I hate walking 20 miles!)
when I find a 60 amp Meter I will up the amp draw to at least 40 amps...
that will probly be pushing the limits on the standard altenator though...
...
...
Come on man You have the Big altenator  ! USE IT ! get some real production from that cell by feeding it what it wants....your starveing it right now ! HAHAHAHAHHAHA
....<grin>

Bob...

[hg2]

    Bob you're right I can run the cell at 60-70 amps that would be simple to do and as for the alternator being able to handle that load maybe in short durations but I'm not so sure about sustained at that high of amperage(guess I could try it I got a lifetime warranty on it hahaha).

   In order to do that I have to drop down another plate to 5 cells and that's where I've hit my deadend trying to do this before.What happens is the increased voltage after the cell warms up to operating temp(course it's a tero and you know that's not that much)causes the production of hydroxy is accompanied by steam production.Yeah at 60-70 amps that baby's rocking but after say about 15 min. run time the gas coming out starts to look like a tea kettle that's ready to pour.At that point the LPMs are around 7 but I think that a good part of that is steam.When you drop a plate you're also raising the per plate voltage,and as you know higher voltage past a certain point is when a cell becomes inefficient and tends to produce more steam than hydroxy which of course does absolutely nothing for mileage gains.I believe that's how Eletrik managed to put a bandaid on the smacks design with it's runaway heat issues by adding more plates to his plates innadip design.the only draw back of course is reduced production.Plate voltage goes hand in hand in regards to production just as the all important amperage does.Both affect heat generation and hydroxy output do they not?

  If there's another way to try without these problems I haven't figured it out yet,but unless someone can tell me another way to try it I'm left with the results I have for now.I do have a plan to get around this that I'm looking at now and seeing as I have a larger alternator(with the lifetime warranty hehhehheh)my plan is build another jumbo tero and adjust the amps with the e-lyte ratio and see if that won't push me up to where I need to be with my 5.7 hemi motor.Right now the only thing delaying that are the funds needed for the plates.You can guess what 10" x 10 " 20 gauge 316L stainless costs these days,let alone the rollingpin(or worse wine bottle hahaha) over the head when the wife gets wind of it.When I do you can be sure I share all the data for all to see,after all that,s what it's all about here right, sharing and learning. 

 

[Bob]

YAH BUT .....
 leave the plate in there and just change the amps !....
...
I think the best method of combating the heat ishue with a Dry cell is to do the Flooded Tero-Cell design that Sailormon came up with on Hydroxygenerator.cc  that was a flash of genius... circulating the electrolyte and allowing it to cool down in a tank is really a smart move... adding a wrap around cooling fin-strip would help that even more.
...
 I don't understand why You'd want to remove a plate just because you raise the amperage
... that seams counter productive to me... I'm not following your logic.
...
Yes Voltage as well as Amps plays a roll in heat making... but I believe its More to do with "Work being Done" than it is voltage over a certain point (like 2vdc per plate)
I have found this to be true in my testings...
 I know, you read everywhere that the heat in a cell is because of the voltage above what the cell can use , it all goes into making heat.... but they never say HOW it can possably do that !  in order for the voltage to go into the electrolyte  and heat the water there has to be a way for it to do that... and as far as I know there isn't one except for the plates and the plates more or less cancel each other out....
...
I think you should keep all 6 plates and simply up the amperage untill you start having a heat problem....

...
every cell no matter how it is designed is going to have a HEAT PROBLEM... its in its nature if you Push it hard ! ...and you won't get the big LPM output unless you push it fairly hard.... ..
...
so make yourself a 3" PVC bubbler that has a hose barb at the bottom for a return line and a hose barb about 3/4 the way to the top and allow the cell to bubble the electrolite out into the bubbler/tank and draw in cooler electrolyte from the bottom....
its simple and very effective !
... that should cure the heat problem... opening up amprages up to about 80 amps I amagon
... ...
you might find that the heat will slowly climb to the boiling point after about an hour
but most trips are shorter than that... if you do just add some wrap around cooling fins on the Reservoir/tank... should cure the problem completely !
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

  Bob you say up the amperage only I don't see any other way to do it other than to drop a plate.I'm already running 28% by weight koh ratio(2 lbs to 1 gallon distilled water)so I can't do it that way.My plate spacing is below 3mm(1/8 "),is there some other way I don't know about?You said to up the amps in the last post but you didn't say how to,if you can give me a suggestion I'll give it a whirl ,see what happens and we'll deal with the heat issues later.You see  the tero design the original plans were incorrect calling for 8 plates even Dan Wells himself said they were,I remember on a post back on HGI he was saying you had to use 6 cells(7 plates) no more no less for optimum efficiency regarding the tero design.And when I said on the other post that I'd tried every combination I could,that included the number of plates used.It always seem to come back to that no matter what other arrangement I try to use.So if there's another way you know to up the amperage I'm all ears(more like I'm all eyes hahahaha)

[Cowboy]

You can 'up' usable amps by running bigger supply wires.  Less energy lost to heat.  You can move the plates closer together.  And of course, you can enrich the solution, but you don't wanna.   Aside from those, I can't think of any others att.  Up the voltage, but we're pretty limited on that in a car.  I dunno.  I need a computer near me when I am drinking.  Thoughts about hydroxy flow easier then. 

[Bob]

Ahhh... well you didn't say you were already running a MAX Soulution of KOH...
...
that is a puzzel 'cuz I was thinking just add more KOH, but your allready way past that point
and this Super concentrated soulution doesn't allow you to draw more amps   then as Cowboy said
its Probly plate spaceing is about the only way for you... ( I asume you have #8 or bigger wires feeding the cell, if not do that too...)
....
if it were me I'ed tear it completely down and replace the gaskets with 1/16" gaskets and re assemble
at the same time I'ed rig it for a recurculateing tank too... so you can have the use of all the plates in the cell and help keep the cell running cooler at the same time.
...
Yah I know its allot of work but You already know its not enough that way... so what have you got to loose ?
...
while you have it appart.... make sure your gasket meterial is non-conductive... I have a feeling something is amiss here... because all you should have to do is add more KOH... but your already maxed and it still won't go over 40 amps..
I have hit a berrior in amps draw before, not with a Dry cell but with a Randy cell and they are 2 completely diferent animals !   My problem was the insulators were not completely insulateing the plates and each plate was conducting a small amount THROUGH the insulators... it heated up badly too
 I found it was the insulateing meterial I used after replaceing that it worked like it was supposed to
....
but I think you will find that your gasket meterial you used will show a few ohms resistance...
and that little amount is probably the problem. if not , thats ok... but you should have closer plates than the 3mm anyway.... 1/16" is a good spaceing... I don't believe that the plates NEED 1/8" to shed the bubbles.... plates spaced .15" appart shed bubbles just fine !
...
other than that I don't know what to tell you to be quite honnest...
closer spaceing will up the amps... and improve output a great deal....
...
Good luck !
Bob.......

[hg2]

  Yeah Bob can't say we didn't try anyway.The spacer gaskets when I bought them I made sure they weren't conductive.They're made from a good grade of neoprene and have worked well.I did test them last year when I first built the cell and they showed no evidence of conductivity.I'm on my third set because I've stepped down as I saw that the amps were in check testing each thickness for amperage.I didn't know what to expect from building such a large cell and was still kinda green at the time regarding cell construction.The last set I bought were 3/32" and after they're torqued down I'm sure they're about 1/16".

  Well I guess the only thing I'm left with to try is adding another cell the same size.That will have to be my secret project because if the wife catches me building another one she'll have my hide(I'm serious about that one no hahas there).

  I do thank you much for trying to help.

                                                      Rusty

[Bob]

if the plates are at 1/16" now and you have a real strong solution of KOH you should be burring the amp guage..... that just don't make sense to me !
that goes against everything I know about these things !
...
I am totally stumped Rusty !
sounds like you have a current limiter in line with the cell ! hehehehehe
...
sounds like you better not make another one cuz I know you ain't healed up from your last beating.... better wait till your out'a the cast and got the bandaids all done with fer a while ... I know I would <GRIN>
.... Personally I realy don't like being "Cat Wrapped" in bed and the wife standing there with a base ball bat  patting her hand ! ....it gets your attention in more than one way !
....hehehehehe
if you dissapear for a while or all we get is a few letters and nothing cohearent from ya we'll know why ! HAHAHAHAHAHA
... best get on the good side of the purdy one Rusty... bring her home some Flowers or something and butter her up before ya start another cell !
....
<GRIN>
...
Bob.........

[hg2]

  I dunno Bob here's the way I look at it.A stock per the plan tero cell draws about 22 amps with an output of around 2 LPM and has (if I remember right)plates that measure 6.5 x 7.5" with the recommended 28 % by weight e-lyte ratio.So the 10" x 10" plate unit I built is just about twice the size of a stock one.If look at it that way it seems to me mine is right in the game for the output and the amps.The sq.in. are almost double so why not the amps?

   Well you know how the old hydroxy game always plays out,right when you think you got it licked something always goes wrong then it's back to drawingboard again.

   Gotta go,the big hho expos today and I need a little more shuteye.I'll bring back all the pics and vids to share with everybody.

    Rusty

[Bob]

Hg2:
  yah thats kind'a weird twice the size in plate area should require twice the amps to get twice the output...
... yet its not working that way.... gott'a be a reason for it !
...
My main question is why would you run up against a WALL in drawing amps in the first place?
...  I've encountered that before a few times... and its puzzeling as heck !
...
I ran into that useing Koolaid as an electrolite... on my Randy cell setup 3 randycells in series at the time.... I added something like 20 packs of koolaid just to get it to 20 amps
but I wanted it to reach 30 amps.... I added something like 15 packs more and got only 21 amps for my wasted Koolaid !.... Never figured that out...
I dumped the Koolaid and went with KOH and did get the 30 amps then discovered when it warmed up it drew something like 60 amps , so I re set it to 15amps and when it warmed up
it gave me 30 amps.... and maybe a tad more...
...
I do not know what causes the Wall in Electrolite current draw, my only guess would be plate spaceing... but You'ed think if you had 2 plates 8" appart that you could adjust the electrolyte to continuity with enough electrolyte... but it doesn't seam to work that way.
there seams to be a point of Saturation in the water that the electrolyte doesn't get over.
that is really the only Guess I have on the subject !
...
if thats the case then moving the plates closer together or adding or subtracting plates is your only option.
I think to increase the amp draw you will have to ADD plates,...  I say this because Many plates draw more amps in pure water than few plates do...
 that will increase whetted Plate Area and lower the Amps per square inch. while the amp input stays the same, and a slightly lower output will be the results, however increasing the Amp draw will allow the cell to produce more than it could before the addition of the plate.
...
I have found that...
whetted surface Area and amps means output...
but that idea is a bit missleading because the plate seperation directly effects output
you can have 400sqr inches of plate area and only produce 1LPM at 40amps by having a wide plate spaceing....(Regardless of the electrolite mix)
and you can have 400square inches of plate area that produce 4LPM at 40amps with real close plate spaceing...
so plate spaceing is very, very important.
...
I used to think Plate spaceing wasn't all that critical because you can just up the electrolite mixture... but that is not true ...especially if there is a point where
the water is saturated and cannot hold any more conductivity making goodies in it!
...
so we live and learn ! 
there is alwayse something with these Hydroxy Generators that will confuze ya !
HAHAHAHHA
...
Bob.........

[Bob]

Hg2:
 Its important to remember the main reason the Dry cell or Treo cell operates so cool
is BECAUSE of the electrolite concentration is so very high... little to no resistance in the water will mean the water doesn't heat up...  where a Low concentration of electrolite
(high resistance in the water) the water will heat up ....
that is important to remember ! because if you bring your concentration DOWN the cell will start heating up MORE ! ...
the idea is to have a real high concentration of KOH to water and then use a PWM to control the amprage.... or perhaps have a Amp limiter in line with the cell but its kind'a hard to find a resistance of just the right amprage that you want to have an amp limiter...
but that is an alternative to the PWM...
...
Bob.....

[candyman55]

I think that your plate spacing is the first limit to amp draw, and the second culprit is too small of wires. bob I know that you reccomend at least #8 but the smallest wiring that I use is #4 and #2 is even better. As soon as I changed to the larger wiring everything worked a lot better.

[Bob]

HAHAHA I won't argue that point Candyman You are definately right there
I will have to change all my wires when I start drawing the higher amps...
I'ed have been better off to go #2 from the start ! HAHAHAHA
...
Bob......

[hg2]

  Candyman55 do you think battery cables would be enough?I've 8 awg now,and it's less than a 3 ft.run from my relay to the cell,and most auto parts store carry extra long battery cables.

[candyman55]

Yes, That is what I use Bought em at autozone. I have #1 cable for supply to my power center and #2 running to the generator. You can get em off junk cars also.

[randy]

I'm leaning more and more towards insulated coat hangers hahahahahaha

[Manta]

Re the non linearity of plate size against output.

Maybe it due to the fact that if you go from, say,  2" * 2" = 4 sq" to 4" * 4" = 16 sq"  you have four times the surface area. You also will have 4 times the resistance in the plate.  It's just a guess at the moment but I suspect the old 'square law' is involved. You know the one;  you need four times the power to go twice as fast.

Just a thought.

Manta

[candyman55]

Could be, if that is the case Randy needs to use nickles in his cells.

[Bob]

Uh ?
...
Bob

[Manta]

Here is another thought.
Take two plates facing each outer. Each fed with power via a terminal in one top corner.  OK.

Now imagine each plate as a resistor,  which it is.  Furthermore,  regard each plate as a lot of smaller resistors placed against each other.

As the current moves across the plates it encounters more resistance the further it gets from the terminals.

So there is a voltage drop across the plate from top to bottom. (still with me )

Now,   we all know that electric takes the easiest rout. So the current flowing across between the plates will be more at the top than it will at the bottom.  So as you move down the plate you get less gas produced.

Why not feed current into both top and bottom of each plate instead of just the top. ?
I know it means a bit more metalwork,  but it should increase the gas output per given plate.

Just a thought.

Manta

[Bob]

thats an interesting thought Manta...
I have a feeling however that the amps would fill the plate like an empty vessel and the amps be the same at the top as at the bottom... not gradually decreaseing as it gets further from the entry point.
 sense electricity moves at the speed of light the entire plate would
be filled, would it not?
...
it perhaps there was not enough amprage to fill the plate, and the amps are used up before the bottom is reached.... then you might have a diferiential between top and bottom
but that would be a very small amount of amprage...(even IF it worked that way)
...
a conductor...the plate will have the same amount of volts on it every where... and same amount of amps...
...
yes technically your correct that the plate is one big resister but the voltage don't realy care sense the resistance is so low it just fills it up like a container.
...
thats my thoughts !
...
Bob.......

[Cowboy]

Manta is correct in his thoughts, however, plate thickness plays a part in that.  There will be a more noticable difference, top-bottom, in 24 guage plates than there would be in 1/16" plate steel.  That goes back to the same theory as wire size.  Electricity will always take the path of least resistance, but using thicker plates will negate that fact and there should be an equal amount of production throughout.  It will not require more current using bigger plates, because of the least resistance thing.  The problem I theorize is that a certain surface area can only produce so much until a threshold is met.  The larger surface area has the potential for more production, which will allow you to run more current, but more current is not required simply because you're using bigger plates.  It's like getting a 4x4 truck.  You won't always use 4x4, but the option is there when you need it.   

[Manta]

Cowboy,

My thoughts exactly. This brings me to something I have often wondered about.  Why do people make terro cells when they lose so much surface area due to the gaskets ?

It seems that a wet cell using the same size plates will produce more gas for the same amps.
Manta

[Cowboy]

If you use the right gasket material, you don't lose that much surface area.  Or, build a bigger box.  I'm still not sure if a wet or dry cell is the better option, but I do know a wire woud cell is not.

[randy]

from my experiments I've also found close spacing gets more output also.

[Bob]

You hit on a good point Cowboy...
 that Threshold you mentioned....
So far it looks like to me in my experiments...not going by anything else, that there is no "threshold" and that points to the possability of a 1"square plate, 2 plate cell could theroetically produce 100LPM if enough amps were given it....
 could this possably be true ? are we actually goofing up by useing mutable plates when only 2 are needed ?
... No doubt it would be EASIER to make 100LPM with more plates and it would probly be more efficient too... no doubt... but is it absoultly nessarry  to achieve high output ? or is it a matter of amps?
...
from what I understand the shape and type of cell takes more and more of a back seat to the power required to accomplish the task...
I used to think the cell itself was the key but it looks as though thats not the case... the Power is the key !
... so far a cell produceing 1LPM on 10amps is about as good as it gets.... I don't think anyone has done better than that yet... so that is about as efficient as its going to get...(for now)
so takeing that effeciency and applying higher amprage to it is probly as good as its going to get.  10LPM 100amps.... 20LPM 200amps... that sort of thing.
I don't know if you can get 10LPM from 2- 1"sqr plates...at any amprage ! but it looks as if  all it takes is the POWER... Plate Area just makes it more Efficient in doing it !
...
my 2 coppers.

[hydrotinkerer]

I heard another guy say that anything over a 8x8" cell needed multiple connections for current. I'll get my cell up and running and do a voltage drop test across the 10" span and see what happens.

[scratch1676]

I read yesterday some guys trying out graphite for plates they are claiming it wont produce heat and its a better conductor than stainless.  What do you think about it.

[Bob]

it won't hold up in a wet inviroment very well...especially one with KOH in it
graphite is far to soft and would probly crumble into dust in a few months ....
thats my guess anyway ! but a few people have made them... they HAVE to get hot though
or the water will.... that much wattage going will make heat ...period if the plates don't get hot the water will... thats my guess anyway !
...
Bob............

[hg2]

I read yesterday some guys trying out graphite for plates they are claiming it wont produce heat and its a better conductor than stainless.  What do you think about it.

  Graphite is better but has some draw backs.Graphite is very brittle for starters,drilling vibration and pressure from thru bolts even using nylon allthread can cause it to break.Graphite they say will perform very well and a cell built with it an excellent producer.

  Should anyone want to try and build the exotic here's a link where you can get it,But hold on to your wallet it aint cheap.The type used for cells is EDM graphite.


   http://www.graphitestore.com/stores.asp/cat_id/9

[hydrotinkerer]

All the graphite cells I have seen turned the electrolite black and the electrodes didn't last long. They did produce good though. Would the graphite particles floating in the electrolite enhance electrolysis?