Another big question

[Manta]

Somethings bothering me.

Kept me awake last night.

Imagine a very simple cell.  Two plates only.  One connected to B + and the other to B -.
We immerse these plates in electrolyte and turn on the power.  Electrons (and/or Ions) flow from the negative plate to the positive plate and current flows.  Before you all reach for your keyboards to refute this,  I'll revert to convention and we'll assume current flows from the + plate to the - plate. Gas is produced by the current flowing through the electrolyte.  OK.

Now, here is what bothers me.

In the series plate configuration (Terro cell), only the two outer plates are connected to the supply.  The rest 'float' (electrically) between the two plates. The question is Why ?  For the life of me I can't envisage the reason for the inner plates to be there .  They appear to me to simply be impeding current flow between the supplying and receiving outer plates. I can see how they can be used to control current flow as they are (to me) efectivly blocking the flow.  They can't supply current by themselves as,  unlike plates in a parallel cell arrangement,  they are not connected to either pole of the battery.

If the gas was being produced from the metal plates themselves,  I could understand it,  but it comes from the electrolyte inbetwen the plates.   And,  as we know,  voltage is in fact dropped by each plate.
So why do we need the series system at all ?

Surely a current controlled parallel multiplate cell is the only way to go.

Manta

(Puts on flame proof jacket and dives down behind wall)

[hg2]

 
  Ok Manta you can shed the jacket and come out from behind the wall(at least for my post anyway I switched off the military mode on my keyboard).I gotta remember that one,I've got a couple of forums I can use that one on  LOL.

  Anyway I think this can be done easily by using what you suggested by lowering the current to say 1.75 to 2.25 v(ideal voltage for efficiency),but It would have to be 2 large plates(I think) to get any kind of useable production.The teros floater plates also produce hydroxy and are needed so that the amps aren't off the scale(per the design).When I first built my larger than plan tero(7-10" x 10" plates)I was bench testing and tried increasing the voltage by stepping up a plate at a time,and quit when I got to the 5th plate and the amps bottomed out my 60 amp ampmeter.The voltage went to 3.5 per plate and the wire terminals got hot even after only a 15 second burst.



  I'm not sure if this helps you but it seemed to maybe relate to what you were trying to understand.





                          Rusty

[Manta]

hg2,
Sort of helps to confirm what I was thinking. But not quite. I see the point of 'floater' plates as current controllers. And,as you mentioned,  two volt per plate seems to be the accepted ideal.  But using the plates to control the current seems wrong somehow.
I feel sure that this business of current density comes into this . If you use only two plates say,  10" * 10" and run 10 Amp through them you have a current dendity (CD) of 100 sq inch at 10 amp = 10 Amp/inch; I think. I assume you only consider  one of each pair. At 60 amp you have (100/60) * 10 =a CD of 60 Amp/inch.

But do you multiply this figure by 5 for the five plates as they are effectivly in series ?
Or maybe you would get the same result if you used only two plates but adjusted the spacing to control the current.  This last bit comes from my belief that the gas comes from the electrolyte and not from the plate surfaces;  it only looks as if it does.

Tests,  more tests.

Manta

p.s.   I take it that you meant lowering the Voltage to 1.25  etc.. 

[candyman55]

As H2 said, gas is produced on the floater plates. The reduction in voltage is relative to the # of plates in the cell. The electrolyte only carry's the current from plate to plate and does not produce any gas at all. If you check the plates, I believe that you wil find that one side of the plate has a positive charge and the opposite side has a negative charge. With the plates creating mini cells, they divide the amperage and voltage evenly between themselves, thus lowering the heat in the cell. (It's magic)

[Manta]

Candyman55,

I agree with that,  but not with the need for them.  They are parasitic and,  whilst controlling the current,  shouldn't be necessary. Maybe someone can try the following (I have enough on at the moment),  set up,say. 5 plates in a parallel configuration,  do the gas flow measurements.  The re-configure them as a series set. measure again and post the results.  Could be interesting.  Don't forget the current measurements.

I don't believe in magic.  Prefer to trust the meters.

Manta

[Bob]

MANTA ! You DING-A-LING !
 Why I oughta'......  hehehehehehe
No seriously Your totally right except you should aferm that electricity flows from Neg to positive
I don't care if it draws flack or Not ! thats just how it works, and the sooner people realise that the faster they'll learn other stuff ! <GRIN>

so You'll get no flack from me ...just teasing !

...
 I often wondered the same thing about the Netural plate idea.... I've never liked the netural plates in a cell... every one I've tried EXCEPT the Smack booster has failed Miserably ! but I think that mainly because the plate meterial... it has to be Stainless Steel in order for netural plate designs to work.... that I know from my own experiments....
but WHY use a Netural plate design in the first place ?
... I think it comes from believeing that any voltage over the minimum on a plate will go into making heat...so people have strived very hard to make a cell that has minimum plate voltage   just to reduce heat....
 According to the guys that made these type of cells the plates are actually charged  and are connected to electricity by the INDUCTION method, so wires are not needed to make them work... thats how the theory goes anyway.....
 and bubbles do form on those plates because the induced voltage is present and they react just as if they were wired directly... with the exception that they are in Series... this could possably be the only case where the Amprage actually stays the same through each plate in the cell. because it is truly in series... and I don't know of anyway  possable to hook up a cell with the plates in series BUT this method....
...
 this method of activateing the plates is somewhat iffy at times however because the distance between
the Neg plate and the Pos Wired plates is not infinant.... it is a short distance usually limited to a few inches...  although Bob Boyce accomplished a good produceing cell that was 101 plates and spanned a large distance, I think it was clusters of 5 plates at a time... but I'm not positive on that
...
never the less the Netural plate system does work... but is it better than Hard wireing each plate to power ?  I seriously doubt it !
 I say that because the distance between the Pos and Neg powered plates is a large distance in a netural plate cell... and even with a super Rich concentration of electrolite ( which these type of cells need) it still is going to have truble getting the electrons to pass that wide of a space...
even if there are netural plates that are charged inbetween those 2 points ( that helps but you still need to add the plate gap to each plate to see the distance the electrical flow must take)
 if you figure 6 plates at 1/16" plate spaceing you have 6/16" or 2/8 or 1/4" space that is the resultant distance the 2 end plates are going to see.... ( now you see why a strong electrolite mix is needed on this type of cell!)... and in most cases the plate gap is 1/8" not 1/16" so it would be 1/2"
with them !
.....
 I think its safe to say Wireing every plate is a MUST for the best efficiency but with that comes Heat
because you are directly plugging the electricity into the electrolite then... thats what you want, but
MORE of your amprage is getting to the electrolite than in the other method.
....
thats how I see it anyway !
...
Bob........

[candyman55]

The series will make less gas in every case. I tried that with my tube generator and spaced the tubes to 3/16 and thought I could strengthen the electrolyte and control it better it won't work. A parallel cell might work by controlling the voltage but I envision it as being quite large  in order  to make a useable amount of gas.

[Bob]

Manta !
a 10"x10" plate will have 100sqr. inches of surface area...
 2 such plates would be 200sqr inches...
putting 10 amps into that 200 sqr inches ...(200/.05=10  ) gives you 0.05amps per sqr inch
a very low amprage per sqr inch...
I have found it takes at least 1 amp per sqr inch to make Hydroxy gas( more is better if corse).... .05 ain't going to do much at all....
...
if you take the numbers you posted and times them by the plate area you'll see its way off <GRIN>
...
you can't have more amps per square in than you are giveing it to begin with  HAHAHAHAHA
....
anyway, a minor goofup...  but I think seriously Hard wired cells work much better by far
many successfull generators have been made by useing only 2 plates... usually those 2 plates are
quite big but that isn't the point, the point is what way is better... and I think the fewer the plates the better off you are, but with only 2 plates you are useing only one side of each plate
so inorder to use both sides you need 4 plates, even still you have 2 of those 4 plates only useing one side of the plate... that is why Mutiple plates work better than just 2 plates...
more of the surface area is being used...
... You are correct in your Belief that the Hydroxy gas is being made in the water.... after all
its the water that makes the Hydroxy gas ...we don't get stainless steel bubbles floating to the top ! right ?   ...they form on the surface of the plates because that is where the magnetic feild is strongest...right on it.... not between the plates but on the plates themselves...
you can see this in action just watching a cell work.
...
my 2 coppers!
Bob........

[candyman55]

Bob, I think that 3,5 or 7 plates will give us the most hydrogen producing plate area.  -+-, +-+-+, +-+-+-+- VS +-, +-+-, +-+-+-

[hg2]

  Manta  I did mean 1.75 -2.25 regarding ideal voltage,at least that's what I've read to have efficient production per the voltage.My teros voltage with 6 cells is 2.23v draws about 40 amps and has an output of almost 4 LPM.

  And you mentioned your belief that the e-lyte produces the hydroxy instead of them forming on the plates themselves.I have to disagree with that because with standard 12vdc generators it is fact that the bubbles form on the plates.The only known method(that I know of)that forces the bubbles to form in the e-lyte is through the use of a resonance drive unit creating harmonics that resonates the plates so that the hydroxy is forced to form between the plates in the e-lyte.


   Next is the cell I presently use that I described regarding amps.I've always been under the impression that the amps per the sq.in. was 1/4 amp per sq.in.As I stated that I use 10" x 10" plates on my tero cell,after deducting the spacer gasket flange of 1/2 " that leaves 9" x 9" plate area exposed to the e-lyte.So with 2 plates at 81 sq.in. the total sq.in. is 162 @ 1/4 amp per sq.in. that's 40 amps which is exactly the amps my cell draws(when I have the correct e-lyte ratio).I run the standard tero 28% by weight to distilled,sothis why I believe 1/4 amp per sq.in.is the correct figure.

[Manta]

hg2,
Your figures are pretty undeniable.  So your probably right.

I'll get back to you.

Manta

[hg2]

hg2,
Your figures are pretty undeniable.  So your probably right.

I'll get back to you.

Manta

  Manta I only said that I just believed I was right not that I was right.I've tried using 8 plates with same e-lyte ratio with lower voltage and the amps dropped to 12 and the output at just over 1 LPM.The reason I went with 6 cells and more production was because I'm feeding a 5.7 Hemi motor and IMO am already falling short on LPM with 4. I recently changed out my 136 amp alternator and traded up to a 160 amp which can easily handle the 40 amps I'm drawing now.Over the last year that I've has this cell installed on my truck I've tried every combination of e-lyte ratios,voltages,number of cells and amperage I could think of,it's possible I missed some but if I did it wasn't many.

[Bob]

Hg2:
 Hay ! if you have a 160amp altenator in that truck whats keeping you from drawing 80 amps from that cell ? or at least more than your doing... 40 amps is on the LOW side of the production curve  for plate area....
Seriously I believe you can Push allot more without hurting a thing !
I said 1 amp per sqr inch before but I ment 1 amp per plate on small sized cells like the Randy cell.... with the Randy cell the cell realy doesn't start produceing very good untill you get over 11 amps...and the cell has 11 plates....
but that is at the BOTTOM of the curve good production from that sell is achieved at 25 to 30 amps warm.... and it realy puts out the LPM (2.5 to 2.75 or more)
....
given that the Randy cell has 55 sqr in Approx. 55/25amps is 2 amps per sqr inch
I am sure that is why the Little cell produces so much... (plus its close spaceing too)
if you ran your cell at 2Amps per sqr inch your output would probly tripple
162 sqr in x 2 is 324 amps though... which is more than you can give it at the present time
......BUT you can give it 60, 70 or 80 amps and still handle it well with the larger altenator.
that small of a change will only raise the heat a little (I think...)
but may well double your output... because like I said, your on the bottom edge of the curve...even a little more will be allot of gain per amp.
set it up for 80 amps and run it like that in the day time with out headlights if you are worried about taxing the altenator too much...
 at the present time I run my truck at 15 amps cold 30amps hot on the standard 65 amp altenator.... BUT I turn the hydroxy generator off if I have to turn on the head lights
....( in all truthfullness I probly don't have to do that... but I hate walking 20 miles!)
when I find a 60 amp Meter I will up the amp draw to at least 40 amps...
that will probly be pushing the limits on the standard altenator though...
...
...
Come on man You have the Big altenator  ! USE IT ! get some real production from that cell by feeding it what it wants....your starveing it right now ! HAHAHAHAHHAHA
....<grin>

Bob...

[hg2]

    Bob you're right I can run the cell at 60-70 amps that would be simple to do and as for the alternator being able to handle that load maybe in short durations but I'm not so sure about sustained at that high of amperage(guess I could try it I got a lifetime warranty on it hahaha).

   In order to do that I have to drop down another plate to 5 cells and that's where I've hit my deadend trying to do this before.What happens is the increased voltage after the cell warms up to operating temp(course it's a tero and you know that's not that much)causes the production of hydroxy is accompanied by steam production.Yeah at 60-70 amps that baby's rocking but after say about 15 min. run time the gas coming out starts to look like a tea kettle that's ready to pour.At that point the LPMs are around 7 but I think that a good part of that is steam.When you drop a plate you're also raising the per plate voltage,and as you know higher voltage past a certain point is when a cell becomes inefficient and tends to produce more steam than hydroxy which of course does absolutely nothing for mileage gains.I believe that's how Eletrik managed to put a bandaid on the smacks design with it's runaway heat issues by adding more plates to his plates innadip design.the only draw back of course is reduced production.Plate voltage goes hand in hand in regards to production just as the all important amperage does.Both affect heat generation and hydroxy output do they not?

  If there's another way to try without these problems I haven't figured it out yet,but unless someone can tell me another way to try it I'm left with the results I have for now.I do have a plan to get around this that I'm looking at now and seeing as I have a larger alternator(with the lifetime warranty hehhehheh)my plan is build another jumbo tero and adjust the amps with the e-lyte ratio and see if that won't push me up to where I need to be with my 5.7 hemi motor.Right now the only thing delaying that are the funds needed for the plates.You can guess what 10" x 10 " 20 gauge 316L stainless costs these days,let alone the rollingpin(or worse wine bottle hahaha) over the head when the wife gets wind of it.When I do you can be sure I share all the data for all to see,after all that,s what it's all about here right, sharing and learning. 

 

[Bob]

YAH BUT .....
 leave the plate in there and just change the amps !....
...
I think the best method of combating the heat ishue with a Dry cell is to do the Flooded Tero-Cell design that Sailormon came up with on Hydroxygenerator.cc  that was a flash of genius... circulating the electrolyte and allowing it to cool down in a tank is really a smart move... adding a wrap around cooling fin-strip would help that even more.
...
 I don't understand why You'd want to remove a plate just because you raise the amperage
... that seams counter productive to me... I'm not following your logic.
...
Yes Voltage as well as Amps plays a roll in heat making... but I believe its More to do with "Work being Done" than it is voltage over a certain point (like 2vdc per plate)
I have found this to be true in my testings...
 I know, you read everywhere that the heat in a cell is because of the voltage above what the cell can use , it all goes into making heat.... but they never say HOW it can possably do that !  in order for the voltage to go into the electrolyte  and heat the water there has to be a way for it to do that... and as far as I know there isn't one except for the plates and the plates more or less cancel each other out....
...
I think you should keep all 6 plates and simply up the amperage untill you start having a heat problem....

...
every cell no matter how it is designed is going to have a HEAT PROBLEM... its in its nature if you Push it hard ! ...and you won't get the big LPM output unless you push it fairly hard.... ..
...
so make yourself a 3" PVC bubbler that has a hose barb at the bottom for a return line and a hose barb about 3/4 the way to the top and allow the cell to bubble the electrolite out into the bubbler/tank and draw in cooler electrolyte from the bottom....
its simple and very effective !
... that should cure the heat problem... opening up amprages up to about 80 amps I amagon
... ...
you might find that the heat will slowly climb to the boiling point after about an hour
but most trips are shorter than that... if you do just add some wrap around cooling fins on the Reservoir/tank... should cure the problem completely !
...
Bob.........