DEBATE:: Voltage vs Heat

[KF-Puffin1]

OK...so the story goes..it only takes around 2.2v per plate to generate hydrogen,and the rest is only going towards heat generation.

Now i know from my own experiance that 2 volts will indeed create bubbles,but from my dead marine battery that only had about 2 volts on it , it could not supply enough current(amps) to create a vast amount of bubbles.......
i have seen and heard of people using computer power supplies to power there cells in the shop,using the 5 volt tag lines.and it seemed to work great,even when the water was saturated in electrolytes.

so in theory you should only have 6 plates total with a 12 volt battery if you want true effince an that is why B Boyce uses 101 plates on his 220 voltage output cell.

SOOOOOOOO...............what yall think about that??

[Manta]

It's not volts that create heat.  Its Watts.  Volts  * Amps. Passing loads of amps at 2 volts will generate lots of heat.

Manta

[KF-Puffin1]

but isnt it actually the unused watts that is doing the heat creation?

[Bob]

This is a good one to Mull over !
because I've read its 1.24 volts per plate ( I'm sure of that number) but most people round it to 2volts
...
now the 6 plate idea is ONLY good if its a true series cell Most cells are not !
though Bob Boyces cells were but look at their design ! vastly diferent from a Randy cell or a Smack booster.... even a dry cell for that matter... although some dry cells are true series cells but not all of them are...
...
that is why I have truble with the idea that any voltage above 2 volts goes to make heat... I think its hog wash ! but I have no proof so I mainly keep that theory to myself <grin>
in a Parallel Cell Like the Randy cell  every plate gets the same voltage that is at the input...
thats why Randy first intended on running all 6 cells in a series configuration to lower the voltage to each cluster of plates evenly to REDUCE the heat.... and indeed it does Reduce the heat...and the output as well, because there is not enough power to go around for all the cells...unless you realy crank on the amps... then the heat comes back !
...
so your left with a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't siduation.... if you put 20 amps into a single cell its going to warm up..... period... you cannot get away from that by changeing the wireing
although you can reduce the amps by changeing the wireing around to where every cell recieves less
of volts and amps and ...son of a gun...you get less heat too !  <grin>
...
this is just my view on the subject , and Manta and I were discussing this in another thred already
according to my electricity and electronics class when You hook things up in a daisy chain, or series
configuration the volts accross each unit in the chain will add up to be the input voltage... that seams to hold true in every case, I don't debate that at all, but the amps are supposed to be the same throughout the elements in that chain as well, and that I have a problem with ...
and I believe that is because the cells we make are not Non-Reactive...like a carbon resistor is
but they are Reactive... change the voltage and they change in capasitance and reactance, change the amprage and they change in the same way again... they are NOT stable solid lumps of carbon they react like a coil of wire or inductor.... that changes how amprage goes through the chain then... with inductors in series the amprage is devided among the units in the series chain....
this is exactly what I have found our cells react like in real life.... thats why I say the voltage is devided among all the cells and the Amprage is too !
 this changes how the Voltage vs Heat thing is Considered..... Doesn't it ?
if you wire 4 cells in parallel they all recieve the same volts and same amps...
if you wire 4 cells in series they devide the voltage .... and the amps... with the amps LOWERED you will no longer have a heat problem will you ?
 it makes perfect sense to me... and explains why when we hook 4 cells in series the output DROPS...
because its not supposed to ! but it alwayse does !...UNLESS you increase the amprage ....
if you increase the amprage the heat comes back...and you've gained nothing by hooking them in series!
....
so why hook them in series in the first place if this is the case ?
hooking them in parallel is a much better way it asures each cell gets its needed power...
but we all know cells in Parallel heat up real bad ! ...so we hook them in series and reduce both volts and amps  and heat...and output.....  it doesn't make much sense doing that !
...
its far better in my way of thinking to hook the cells in Parallel and reduce the amp draw from the start ...increase the amp draw till you can no longer tollerate any more heat ...and leave it at that.
...
As Manta said its not the volts its the Watts....which is.. "the WORK BEING DONE" that causes the heat...if you do allot of work your going to have allot of heat....cause and effect... you can't have one without the other !
....
thats my view on it !
... I say Pour on the volts and amps and Deal with the heat some other way !
<GRIN>
...
Bob........

[candyman55]

Well Bob,
 I think that you have hit the nail square on the head. That is the reason I made my big cell hold so much electrolyte. One hope was I could keep the heat down and managable. I beefed up all of the connections until I can run 100 amps continiously and the connections don't get hot so I know that all of the heat is coming from the cells. 100 amps makes a lot of heat.

I had hoped that by using 8 tube cells that i would still have enough volts to operate 12/8=1.5 Volts and not have overvoltage contribute to the heat problem, but the way they are hooked up I am not sure if that is the way it is working and I can't figure out how to test it.

[Bob]

Well, we were all sarted off on the wrong foot if my theory is correct, by old information and well meaning people with false information... but that is besides the point...
the point is  I don't think its advantagious for you to hook the tubes in series... parallel is probly better...but Run them at a lower amprage so the heat stays about the same and you should find about the same, output...
  if we think about it Locgically... weather it volts that causes the heat or Amps that causes the heat , or a combonation of the two that causes the heat... ( which is the case I think )
 for X amount of volts and amps you will have X heat... and if conditions are correct  X amount of hydroxy gas...
...
I believe its very easy to understand if you take it to its basics....
a cell uses electricity to produce Hydroxy gas....
produceing hydroxy gas makes heat.
....
So its the proccess of makeing the hydroxy gas that is generateing the heat... not X AMOUNT OF VOLTS ABOVE 2VDC ALL GOES TO HEAT! and the cell with no volts above 2vdc will be heat free... no the work is still being done in the cell and there for  heat will be made in the cell... but because the voltage is
lower in the cell less work is done all the way around...
 According to the EXPERTS  any Voltage above 1.24vdc to a cell makes no more diference in the output
I have ISHUES with that "theory" and remember it is a THEORY its not a proven fact.
 I have in a small way partially proven the theory however....
I hooked 3 cells in series and was getting a mear 1/4LPM at 20 amps ....useing 12vdc
I then switched the charger to 6vdc charge and the output increased slightly. (amprage increased slightly due to the charger, which accounts for the change)  but there was no 1/2 DECREASE in output
so it actually proves that we do not need a full 12vdc to run a cell...
...but it doesn't prove that any thing above 1.24vdc goes to heat...
...
Remember you can Have 12vdc in a pan of water with no connection to ground and there is no heat...
because there is no work being done... no electrons flowing...no heat.
...
its not the Hookup or the voltage realy its the WORK BEING DONE that makes the heat....
what we have been doing is shooting ourselves in the foot !  to keep the heat down... we have been inadvertantly reduceing output and it keeps the cells running cooler by running them in series!
while all the time the OUTPUT is reduced ...less work means less heat !
...
this is MY THEORY and like all theorys can be WRONG or Right so think about it and deside for yourself
but this is what it looks like its doing to me...
 Its Not the voltage that causes heat, like we have been told, but the work being done that causes the heat.... we reduce the work being done and obviously the heat is reduced!
....

now Adimitadly somewhere in there is a "threshold" of volts needed to run a cell and no voltage above that increases the output...
I do not know for a fact that this OVER voltage has an effect on the heat or not...simply because the only connections in the cell are to the plates... the over voltage can't go anywhere to MAKE HEAT
it has been said that the voltage goes into the electrolite and simply heats the water.... butthe water has no real connection to it... the neg and pos plates are both in the water true but that is the nature of the working cell....getting the electricity into the water is what we want to do in the first place....between the plates.... so electrolisis can take place....
.. so I thnk its another myth that the voltage OVER 2vdc goes into makeing heat.... it don't GO anywhere but where its supposed to !....
FWIW( for what its worth)
...
Bob...........

[KF-Puffin1]

so.......then,lets talk cooling options.

nvm sounds like a good thread to start in the building generators section

http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,105.0.html

[Manta]

A side issue.
The series cell Will suffer from the 'Christmas tree' effect.  I.e if one plate goes high resistance it will reduce the current through the entire chain (sorry Bob, but it's the way I see it  ) Just like your tree lights all failing if one bulb goes.
Ok,  so I know that the modern led chains are in parallel and don't do that.  Humour me.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
   YES YES thats exactly my point... if one cell shorts out internally it will ROB the amprage from the rest...  because they are a reactive load the bad cell might pull 40 amps itself and only allow 5 amps to the others !
...
in other words each cell recieves a diferent amount of AMPRAGE when in series if the cells are alike in every respect it should be very close to avrage  but that is not garenteed!
....
Bob.........

[Cowboy]

I have to agree with you there Bob.  In a series cell (Tera type) if one cell shorts out, MORE amps will be seen at the remaining cells.  Reason being that the two plates that short together will electrically be seen as one.  Total current should not change, but current between plates will rise.  Even in a non-Tera type, say you have mulitple cells hooked in series, which ever cell shorts, will just be removed from the equation.  It's the parallel set-ups that would create issues, since each cell would be tied to a voltage source.

[Manta]

Cowboy,
I take it that you really mean you disagree with Bob. Your describing the opposite effect to him. I agree with you that a pair of shorted plates will act as one and thus increase the amperage.  But it will increase through all the cell.  You can't have different currents in a series cell you can have different voltage drops.

Bob,  think about a car battery.  It only takes one duff cell to make the whole battery useless.
Sorry,  but that is the way it is.

Manta

[Cowboy]

disagree, agree, whatever.  It's all in the wording with you guys...    The current will increase all through the unit (each cell), but I still think total current draw will remain the same.  It may rise slightly due to the higher voltages present through the unit, I'm not sure.  If current raises from the additional voltage, then total power will increase, which will go back to a heat problem. 

Manta,  It only takes one bad cell to make a car battery useless in a car.  The battery will still provide a voltage though.  Just won't be as high because of the lost cell.  Of course, depending on how the cell went out, it could render the entire battery FUBAR.

[LTCFISHER]

I guess I missed this debate: LOL

Lets see if I can add to the mystery: If I have 1 cell made up of 5 plates (3 pos. and 2 neg.) the unit is fed with 13.6 volts dc, at 20 amps. Now we all know that the plates are electrically shorted already due to the fact they are submerged in a vat of water causing the cell to draw amps. Now if by chance a positive plate touch a negative plate the cell is rendered useless at the point of self destruction caused by the shorted plates. Everything suppling the cell will destruct due to over amps not voltage, voltage will be constant until broken. The Cell is doomed.

[candyman55]

Only in a parallel cell will the cell be doomed. In a series cell the cell should continue to function. the amp draw should increase.

[LTCFISHER]

Now I agree with that.

[Bob]

Now Hold on here Fellers !
when I hooked up my 3  Parallel cells in series the effects were anything  but what was expected.... I expected the amps to stay the same.... they didn't  I had to re adjust the electrolite, back to 20 amps draw with 20 amps draw I got exactly 1/2 the output that I had with only one cell... when I added the 3rd cell I got another reduction of output down to what I expect was 1/3 the original... I had to adjust the KOH to be 20 amps once again
...so now I had 3 cells running on 20 amps draw and my output was around 1/4LPM
if the amprage doesn't devide among the cells and stays the same why did the output drop ?
...
 here is what happened... the first cell put out 2LPM at 20 amps...
I added a second cell in series with the first... corrected the electrolite for a 20 amp draw
and the output was 1LPM from both cells.....
this makes sense ONLY if the Amprage is devided among the 2 cells each was now getting 10 amps instead of 20.... and there for put out less on each one...
when I added a 3rd in the same manor the amps were devided between all 3 cells and therefor
each cell was getting 6.666 amps each and the output reflected that !
....
now if that is not what happened then please explain what DID happen! because I see no other explination....
these are randy cells which are Parallel cells
I wasn't thinking of a Dry cell when shorting out a plate... shorting out a plate in a floating plate cell won't be a real big deal but in a Randy cell its a direct short in the system and will burn up the wireing and all that if there is no curcuit breaker in line
...
...
so in 3 Cells in series the amprage is devided evenly among them if you ground out one of those cells the entire link of them will be robbed of amps because the electricity will take the easiest route and that is stright to ground... if their series cells and 2 plates touch its no big deal as they are netural plates but if you ground one of the end plates to ground you have a major melt down...
but as I said I was thinking of Randy cells in series  and my experiment showed that the conventional way of thinking don't work here...
I adjusted the amprage to 20 amps with all 3 cells in series and each cell should see 20 amps and put out 2LPM.... I've read that too....but it doesn't work that way!
what happens is the amprage to each cell drops and your output drops as well leaveing you with a very small output....
so you have to readjust the Electrolite to get 60 amps in order for each cell to see 20 amps each to get your 2LPM from each cell !....
...
Honnest... I wouldn't stear you wrong on this ...its very important that you know this or when you do try to hook cells in series you will be in for a shock !
...
Bob..........

[randy]

I concur with Bob, contrary to what I've read these things loose amperage when connected in series, I've even had each cell in it's own bath with the same results, but somehow I'm getting better results with three in series, starts out cold pulling 10-12 amps at 1+ lpm after it's warmed it's pulling 20-22 amps at 2+ lpm, I have two of these three series cells in my system.

[candyman55]

I think that every one is on the right track, The tero cell is a true series generater, it has Pos and Neg wired to the end plates and the neutral plates in the middle which create the cells. The volts and amps enter one side and divide evenly across the series of cells. If 2 neutral plates or even 1 pos. or one neg. plate short out no big deal, you loose one cell the amps go up and the volts redivide and you get more amps and volts per cell.

On the randy cells or any other parallel cell the entire cell sees the Voltage and the amperage, because it is a complete generater.. If one of the plates grounds out you loose the entire generater. when you hook up another generator in series the voltage and amps divide with half going to each one. So you have to naturally adjust the electrolyte to raise the amperage but each one only sees 6 volts. And so on and so fourth.

Once the randy cells are wired in series if you short one out you will not have a melt down and the amps will increase in the others.

[Bob]

Candyman55:
 very well explained thank you... thats what I was trying to say ! HEHEHEHEHE
....
but you said at the last part with randy cells in series if one cell shorts out
you will "NOT HAVE A MELT DOWN" and the rest of the cells in the series will just readjust and run on higher amprage....
 I dissagree simply because like a daisy chain of light bulbs  if you short accross the terminals on a bulb socket all the lights go out... its a direct short and the electrons take the easiest path...
if you take out a bulb you open the curcuit and no electrons flow at all
if you remove the bulb completely and complete the curcuit then all the rest of the bulbs will have more power all the way around....but that won't happen if the cell shorts out internally... it will be like shorting the 2 terminals togather in effect  Killing the power to the rest in the series..... and giveing you a Meltdown if your not prepaired!
...
thats how I seez it anyhoo !
Bob.......

[Bob]

Ok now that we got the Series cell and the Parallel cell differentiated ...
I an thinking that 3 SERIES cells in Series would react the same way as the parallel cells did....
although there would be no sense in hooking series cells in series unless you were trying to run them off a high voltage inverter for some reason... but If you did....
the Amperage would be evenly divided among those 3 cells just like with the parallel cells
so you would have to increase your amperage draw to compensate for the drop.  and ofcorse the voltage would be devided between the cells as well...
so if you tried to get 12v across each series cell and you were useing a 120v supply
you'ed need 120/12=10 series cells to get the voltage down... but remember the amps are devided as well so if the inverter has 60amps available in it  each cell would only get 6 amps... which is hardly enough for a good output !
....
get it ?
...
Bob.......

[candyman55]

No, I don't follow.  If you have 3 Randy cell in series you cannot have a melt down unless you short the direct positive and the direct negative. The water space anywhere in the chain  will prevent this.

My Big Generator is in series and each cell is also in series. It won't short out unless you short the entire generator from end to end. But the amps will increase proportinate to the # of cells that you short in the chain.

shorting across one cell is like taking one cell out and only hooking up 2.

That is why I am thinking methanol mix for an electrolyte, It electrolizes at avout 1/3rd of the Voltage as the other electrolytes.

[Bob]

thats what I was thinking ...one pos plate shorted out to a neg plate... melt down!
in your series cells yah your right  it don't change much just re distributes the power and goes on about its business.. but in a parallel cell a short out is a show stopper !
...
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Only if you just have one paraelle cell if you have 2 wired in series it will continue to work at greater amps to the working cell.

[Bob]

Ahhh I see what your saying... Your right...and I am w..wr.... wr...wrong...Ugh I can't say that word very well when it pertains to me ! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
...
Yes, as in a string of 3 bulbs in series ....
 all daisy chained togather and a long ground wire to complete the curcuit....
if you short between the 2nd and 3rd bulb to the ground wire the 3rd light goes out and the first 2 bulbs get slightly brighter....
if you short after the 1st bulb the other 2 bulbs go out and the first bulb gets real bright because it gets all the juice !
....
I knew that but I wasn't saying that for some reason !  DUH ! thank you for being persistant and getting it through my thick head ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,  re you problem at the top of the page.

If you connect the three Randy cells in series you will only get 1/3 voltage across each one.  I.e 4 Volts instead of 12 volts. So you only get 4 * amps instead of 12 * Amps for your wattage.This is probably why you have to adjust the electrolyte to up the current.

The sketch below may illustrate what I mean.

Manta

[Bob]

Exactly Manta !
Well done !
...
however that doesn't explain why the 3 cells in series drawing the same 20 amps
doesn't put out 6LPM...
that is what we were all told it would do and it doesn't work that way
what actually happens is the LPM drops to a very low output say 1/3LPM or 1/4LPM
...
 Lets hear your explination on that !   you'll probly teach us all something ...Again!
...
hehehe
Bob......

[Cowboy]

Perhaps you have proven my theory all along, that voltage, not amperage has more of an effect on production.  If we go super high in voltage (50,000 VDC, oddly enough found in an ignition coil...) our production will be beautiful.  Of course, our current units couldn't support that because of the plasma sparks from plate spacing.  But the plasma might be beneficial.  Who knows...?  The Gobblin knows.

[Manta]

Bob,

I think we are all teaching each other here. Which is how it should be. 

Manta

[LTCFISHER]

You both are correct it takes 13.6 Volts and up really activate the reaction in water.

[Bob]

so is Higher voltage a better producer than high amps then ?
say a 12vdc-120vac inverter ?
...
interesting ideas !
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Bob, I am not to sure that that is correct. I guess that the way to test it is hook 2 batteries in series for 24 V and see. I tried 23000V and could not get a bubble.

[Cowboy]

23,000VDC and couldn't get a bubble?  Something had to be amiss, because even with miiliamps of current, there is enough voltage present to push it through...

[Bob]

hehehe I thought that Cowboy....but I didn't say anything.... <grin>
...
probly lot a through curcuit... when playing with that kind of volts one has a tennacy to be a bit Spooky ! hehehehhe... like...CLICK,...Click ok it don't work... <GRIN>
heheheheheh
...
Bob........

[candyman55]

Don't know what for sure I used a High Intensity Discharge ballast. The output voltage is 23,000 but the amperage max is 8. A little low on the amps but I should have at least got a little action.

[Cowboy]

You should have had quite a reaction.  Especially at 8 amps.  That's 184kW...

[candyman55]

I'm tellin ya nothin happened. I was expectin big things to. i got a bunch of em they go with HID lighting for cars.

[Cowboy]

Odd indeed....

[Bob]

Still sounds like the cell wasn't getting the juce to me ...with 8amps you should have seen constant arcing  that many volts and amps will make an arc 1/2" long easy...
so it was probly arcing and not even getting to the cell.
... thats my guess!
...
Bob.......

[Cowboy]

Were you using straight water, or a solution?  Try some of that distilled demineralized stuff and see what happens.  I'm just astonished that nothing happened.  Or remove liquid completely and see if sparks are visible.  Just be careful that you don't become the path of least resistance.

[Manta]

Candyman,

Could you add a sketch showing just how you have this high voltage system connected ?

Manta

[LTCFISHER]

That does sound strange, you say the ballast puts out 8.0 amps or .8amps most ballast I have played with only put out .8amps., or is it one for a high pressure sodium lamp.
The experiment with 2 batteries sounds good I may kick the power supply up and see on the next cell, I only worked with in the perimeter of the available voltage of the truck.

[LTCFISHER]

Bob, what they told me it take's 13.6 or 13.8 vdc to extract the hydrogen from water, "Hydrogen becomes active at 13.6/8 volt d.c.) KNow that was 35 years ago it may have changed since then. LOL. Dran new math.

[candyman55]

manta,
I don't have any way to draw the connection. The corrected Voltage is 2300V not 23000 my fault. I will try to get a pic of the ballast. the are the same ballast used on HID auto lighting.

[LTCFISHER]

Why everyone is here,lol.
I am looking for a altenator off a thermo king refer trailer used in the 80's (output 230 vdc @200amps).
Can anyone help with a part number thermo king can't find it. All microfis was lost in hurricane.

[Bob]

KAINT Hep Ya LTC Fisher .....sorry  wish I could.
haing around a truck stop and ask truckers ?
hehehehe
there is probly many still on the road !
 they don't do NUTTIN to trailers but haul them ... they have to break down before they replace stuff on a trailer ! HAHAHAHHA
...
My step Dad did 3Million miles driveing truck for Puriton Bennett hauling Nitrious Oxide
to Hospitals all over the USA... He was quite a character ! may he rest in peace
....
the stories he told about driveing a truck would make ya never want to crawl into one ! HAHAHAHAHAHAH
...
Bob........

[Manta]

Candyman,
Which operating system are you using ? W98,  XP  or what?

Manta

[Cowboy]

Why everyone is here,lol.
I am looking for a altenator off a thermo king refer trailer used in the 80's (output 230 vdc @200amps).
Can anyone help with a part number thermo king can't find it. All microfis was lost in hurricane.

http://www.thermoking.com/tk/index.asp

Their code is broken, but http://www.thermoking.com/thermoking/truck/eame/catalog/tk/english/a1050n/specifications.htm  might have the part you're looking for.

Hope this helps, at least a little.

[LTCFISHER]

Thanks, Cowboy.
I tried that link and it seems it is for dealers only.
Back to SQ. 1.. LOL

[candyman55]

Candyman,
Which operating system are you using ? W98,  XP  or what?

Manta

Manta,
I got XP

[Manta]

Candyman,

XP.  ok. if you look in 'accessories' you will find the 'Paint' program.  It's very basic,  but it is what I use to do my sketches. When you come to save the finished masterpiece,  save a copy as *.jpg to use for posting,  and one as *.bmp as a backup that you can modify if you need to.
It's a bit tedious drawing with a mouse, but it works. To get straight lines don't forget to hold down the 'shift' key at the same time as you draw.

Manta

p.s.  You can make a shortcut to Paint,  saves going through the 'start' ,  'all programs', etc process every time.

[Bob]

this Forum reconized *.bmp files by the way...
so you can post bitmap pictures !
just so you know!
...
Bob.......