DEBATE:: Voltage vs Heat

[KF-Puffin1]

OK...so the story goes..it only takes around 2.2v per plate to generate hydrogen,and the rest is only going towards heat generation.

Now i know from my own experiance that 2 volts will indeed create bubbles,but from my dead marine battery that only had about 2 volts on it , it could not supply enough current(amps) to create a vast amount of bubbles.......
i have seen and heard of people using computer power supplies to power there cells in the shop,using the 5 volt tag lines.and it seemed to work great,even when the water was saturated in electrolytes.

so in theory you should only have 6 plates total with a 12 volt battery if you want true effince an that is why B Boyce uses 101 plates on his 220 voltage output cell.

SOOOOOOOO...............what yall think about that??

[Manta]

It's not volts that create heat.  Its Watts.  Volts  * Amps. Passing loads of amps at 2 volts will generate lots of heat.

Manta

[KF-Puffin1]

but isnt it actually the unused watts that is doing the heat creation?

[Bob]

This is a good one to Mull over !
because I've read its 1.24 volts per plate ( I'm sure of that number) but most people round it to 2volts
...
now the 6 plate idea is ONLY good if its a true series cell Most cells are not !
though Bob Boyces cells were but look at their design ! vastly diferent from a Randy cell or a Smack booster.... even a dry cell for that matter... although some dry cells are true series cells but not all of them are...
...
that is why I have truble with the idea that any voltage above 2 volts goes to make heat... I think its hog wash ! but I have no proof so I mainly keep that theory to myself <grin>
in a Parallel Cell Like the Randy cell  every plate gets the same voltage that is at the input...
thats why Randy first intended on running all 6 cells in a series configuration to lower the voltage to each cluster of plates evenly to REDUCE the heat.... and indeed it does Reduce the heat...and the output as well, because there is not enough power to go around for all the cells...unless you realy crank on the amps... then the heat comes back !
...
so your left with a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't siduation.... if you put 20 amps into a single cell its going to warm up..... period... you cannot get away from that by changeing the wireing
although you can reduce the amps by changeing the wireing around to where every cell recieves less
of volts and amps and ...son of a gun...you get less heat too !  <grin>
...
this is just my view on the subject , and Manta and I were discussing this in another thred already
according to my electricity and electronics class when You hook things up in a daisy chain, or series
configuration the volts accross each unit in the chain will add up to be the input voltage... that seams to hold true in every case, I don't debate that at all, but the amps are supposed to be the same throughout the elements in that chain as well, and that I have a problem with ...
and I believe that is because the cells we make are not Non-Reactive...like a carbon resistor is
but they are Reactive... change the voltage and they change in capasitance and reactance, change the amprage and they change in the same way again... they are NOT stable solid lumps of carbon they react like a coil of wire or inductor.... that changes how amprage goes through the chain then... with inductors in series the amprage is devided among the units in the series chain....
this is exactly what I have found our cells react like in real life.... thats why I say the voltage is devided among all the cells and the Amprage is too !
 this changes how the Voltage vs Heat thing is Considered..... Doesn't it ?
if you wire 4 cells in parallel they all recieve the same volts and same amps...
if you wire 4 cells in series they devide the voltage .... and the amps... with the amps LOWERED you will no longer have a heat problem will you ?
 it makes perfect sense to me... and explains why when we hook 4 cells in series the output DROPS...
because its not supposed to ! but it alwayse does !...UNLESS you increase the amprage ....
if you increase the amprage the heat comes back...and you've gained nothing by hooking them in series!
....
so why hook them in series in the first place if this is the case ?
hooking them in parallel is a much better way it asures each cell gets its needed power...
but we all know cells in Parallel heat up real bad ! ...so we hook them in series and reduce both volts and amps  and heat...and output.....  it doesn't make much sense doing that !
...
its far better in my way of thinking to hook the cells in Parallel and reduce the amp draw from the start ...increase the amp draw till you can no longer tollerate any more heat ...and leave it at that.
...
As Manta said its not the volts its the Watts....which is.. "the WORK BEING DONE" that causes the heat...if you do allot of work your going to have allot of heat....cause and effect... you can't have one without the other !
....
thats my view on it !
... I say Pour on the volts and amps and Deal with the heat some other way !
<GRIN>
...
Bob........

[candyman55]

Well Bob,
 I think that you have hit the nail square on the head. That is the reason I made my big cell hold so much electrolyte. One hope was I could keep the heat down and managable. I beefed up all of the connections until I can run 100 amps continiously and the connections don't get hot so I know that all of the heat is coming from the cells. 100 amps makes a lot of heat.

I had hoped that by using 8 tube cells that i would still have enough volts to operate 12/8=1.5 Volts and not have overvoltage contribute to the heat problem, but the way they are hooked up I am not sure if that is the way it is working and I can't figure out how to test it.

[Bob]

Well, we were all sarted off on the wrong foot if my theory is correct, by old information and well meaning people with false information... but that is besides the point...
the point is  I don't think its advantagious for you to hook the tubes in series... parallel is probly better...but Run them at a lower amprage so the heat stays about the same and you should find about the same, output...
  if we think about it Locgically... weather it volts that causes the heat or Amps that causes the heat , or a combonation of the two that causes the heat... ( which is the case I think )
 for X amount of volts and amps you will have X heat... and if conditions are correct  X amount of hydroxy gas...
...
I believe its very easy to understand if you take it to its basics....
a cell uses electricity to produce Hydroxy gas....
produceing hydroxy gas makes heat.
....
So its the proccess of makeing the hydroxy gas that is generateing the heat... not X AMOUNT OF VOLTS ABOVE 2VDC ALL GOES TO HEAT! and the cell with no volts above 2vdc will be heat free... no the work is still being done in the cell and there for  heat will be made in the cell... but because the voltage is
lower in the cell less work is done all the way around...
 According to the EXPERTS  any Voltage above 1.24vdc to a cell makes no more diference in the output
I have ISHUES with that "theory" and remember it is a THEORY its not a proven fact.
 I have in a small way partially proven the theory however....
I hooked 3 cells in series and was getting a mear 1/4LPM at 20 amps ....useing 12vdc
I then switched the charger to 6vdc charge and the output increased slightly. (amprage increased slightly due to the charger, which accounts for the change)  but there was no 1/2 DECREASE in output
so it actually proves that we do not need a full 12vdc to run a cell...
...but it doesn't prove that any thing above 1.24vdc goes to heat...
...
Remember you can Have 12vdc in a pan of water with no connection to ground and there is no heat...
because there is no work being done... no electrons flowing...no heat.
...
its not the Hookup or the voltage realy its the WORK BEING DONE that makes the heat....
what we have been doing is shooting ourselves in the foot !  to keep the heat down... we have been inadvertantly reduceing output and it keeps the cells running cooler by running them in series!
while all the time the OUTPUT is reduced ...less work means less heat !
...
this is MY THEORY and like all theorys can be WRONG or Right so think about it and deside for yourself
but this is what it looks like its doing to me...
 Its Not the voltage that causes heat, like we have been told, but the work being done that causes the heat.... we reduce the work being done and obviously the heat is reduced!
....

now Adimitadly somewhere in there is a "threshold" of volts needed to run a cell and no voltage above that increases the output...
I do not know for a fact that this OVER voltage has an effect on the heat or not...simply because the only connections in the cell are to the plates... the over voltage can't go anywhere to MAKE HEAT
it has been said that the voltage goes into the electrolite and simply heats the water.... butthe water has no real connection to it... the neg and pos plates are both in the water true but that is the nature of the working cell....getting the electricity into the water is what we want to do in the first place....between the plates.... so electrolisis can take place....
.. so I thnk its another myth that the voltage OVER 2vdc goes into makeing heat.... it don't GO anywhere but where its supposed to !....
FWIW( for what its worth)
...
Bob...........

[KF-Puffin1]

so.......then,lets talk cooling options.

nvm sounds like a good thread to start in the building generators section

http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,105.0.html

[Manta]

A side issue.
The series cell Will suffer from the 'Christmas tree' effect.  I.e if one plate goes high resistance it will reduce the current through the entire chain (sorry Bob, but it's the way I see it  ) Just like your tree lights all failing if one bulb goes.
Ok,  so I know that the modern led chains are in parallel and don't do that.  Humour me.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
   YES YES thats exactly my point... if one cell shorts out internally it will ROB the amprage from the rest...  because they are a reactive load the bad cell might pull 40 amps itself and only allow 5 amps to the others !
...
in other words each cell recieves a diferent amount of AMPRAGE when in series if the cells are alike in every respect it should be very close to avrage  but that is not garenteed!
....
Bob.........

[Cowboy]

I have to agree with you there Bob.  In a series cell (Tera type) if one cell shorts out, MORE amps will be seen at the remaining cells.  Reason being that the two plates that short together will electrically be seen as one.  Total current should not change, but current between plates will rise.  Even in a non-Tera type, say you have mulitple cells hooked in series, which ever cell shorts, will just be removed from the equation.  It's the parallel set-ups that would create issues, since each cell would be tied to a voltage source.

[Manta]

Cowboy,
I take it that you really mean you disagree with Bob. Your describing the opposite effect to him. I agree with you that a pair of shorted plates will act as one and thus increase the amperage.  But it will increase through all the cell.  You can't have different currents in a series cell you can have different voltage drops.

Bob,  think about a car battery.  It only takes one duff cell to make the whole battery useless.
Sorry,  but that is the way it is.

Manta

[Cowboy]

disagree, agree, whatever.  It's all in the wording with you guys...    The current will increase all through the unit (each cell), but I still think total current draw will remain the same.  It may rise slightly due to the higher voltages present through the unit, I'm not sure.  If current raises from the additional voltage, then total power will increase, which will go back to a heat problem. 

Manta,  It only takes one bad cell to make a car battery useless in a car.  The battery will still provide a voltage though.  Just won't be as high because of the lost cell.  Of course, depending on how the cell went out, it could render the entire battery FUBAR.

[LTCFISHER]

I guess I missed this debate: LOL

Lets see if I can add to the mystery: If I have 1 cell made up of 5 plates (3 pos. and 2 neg.) the unit is fed with 13.6 volts dc, at 20 amps. Now we all know that the plates are electrically shorted already due to the fact they are submerged in a vat of water causing the cell to draw amps. Now if by chance a positive plate touch a negative plate the cell is rendered useless at the point of self destruction caused by the shorted plates. Everything suppling the cell will destruct due to over amps not voltage, voltage will be constant until broken. The Cell is doomed.

[candyman55]

Only in a parallel cell will the cell be doomed. In a series cell the cell should continue to function. the amp draw should increase.

[LTCFISHER]

Now I agree with that.